Escaping The IQ Shredder: w/ Spandrell

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YouTube automatic captions, grouped into readable passages. Names and wording may contain transcription errors; the recording is the source of truth.

00:00 It it really got me thinking about loyalty and you know how loyalty works and you know back to Shadow Hart was this quit that he he would say all the time. He was like loyalty only goes so far as your options right women are only loyal as far as their options. The more options they have the less loyal they will be and men should be the same way. I was like you know what yeah that's exactly how it works. People are loyal depending on the options they have. And why were like proletarians loyal to [ __ ] Soviet Russia with all its misery and depression? Because they had nothing else to do. They had no other options. >> We might have actually, Dude, I think we just cracked it, SA. So, we've had this like ongoing thesis on the podcast basically that uh an increased efficiency of markets tends to just destroy humans enjoyments of the market.

00:47 And we've been we've like we know that this is true observably, right? Like if you have a dating market that is hyperefficient, you can go on Tinder and you can swipe and find like 8 million people who are plus or minus like 2% of like whatever your algo ranking is. Everyone instantly wants to kill themselves. And this is the explanation for that, right? Is if optionality is the inverse of loyalty, we've now basically removed loyalty from society. like it can't exist if everyone has enough options and there's a system that provides everybody with like both the workplace liquidity and the uh like the romantic liquidity that they need for everything then just no one is loyal to anything. Yes. You which means you can never trust anything right like if you can't be loyal you can't trust anything. So like everything is a rug now. you have to be.

01:33 >> Well, it's just optionality is like actually like optionality like anything else like you know you should you should there should be more than one woman in your village, right? So that way if if the only one who's there has some massive problem, you can go marry someone else. But if there's like 10 million women in your proverbial quote unquote village, like your actual realistic dating pool, it is now like incredibly difficult to Right. It's like the secretary problem where it's like there's some, you know, optimal search and obviously like this is very theoretical, but there's an optimal percentage of the sample that you go through in order to find the best secretary. Welcome to the Bosley Deniable Experience with Lucas, my beautiful majestic looking co-host, and

02:20 myself, your your goofy penguin avatar of goofy anonymous penguin. Brought to you by our sponsors Poly Market, Zcash, Citizen X, and Passage Press. We love our sponsors, don't we folks? We do. And also now, I have to show this now. We have bonus episodes on the substack. I'm supposed to harsh. >> Yes, this is how you convert, right? If you put it at the end, nobody listens. You have to at the very beginning, you have to say bonus paid content on the substack. Subscribe now. 10 trillion dollars bonus content if you don't listen. We have to like uh we have to pressure people. We have to say like we're talking about you. It's it's like the way your friends pressure you into a hangout. Like we are all going to hate

03:06 you if you don't come. We're talking about you. But yes, we have Spandrel who's rejoined. We're doing a little intro. Sometimes we hit the intro like halfway through the episodes just because we we like to get into the flow a little more naturally. >> We have to stop doing that by the way. >> Yeah, we have to stop. But Spandre Fandrol is one of these brilliant people who's been blogging for a long time. You'll hear now it'll it'll get spliced, but some some great stories about like early blogging. I actually want to talk about that a little about like blogging to zero people in the audience because I want to start writing more long form. I've been trying really hard. It's very difficult because you get so much of the dopamine that you could get from a blog post from a tweet. the it contains like 80% of the message but just has 10% of the effort in times less words and

03:51 effort. Also, by the way, I asked uh Codeex, I was like, "Spandrol, we're having you on the podcast. What can you rustle up for me?" And uh >> dude, it does a shockingly good job. Like, you are out there, man. >> Okay, >> we know Yeah, we know we know everything about you. It starts off with uh it actually starts off talking about like the IQ shredder stuff, which is interesting because like I'd heard the term IQ shredder a bajillion times, but I apparently had contextually reconstructed what it was completely wrong. >> So I it like I mean you can explain it if you want to, but it it was saying that Go for it. >> There's a funny backstory to that. So this was 2012 and I had just moved to China to to Shanghai and I had just

04:38 started blogging like a year previous right and uh you know when you start blogging like nobody knows you it's kind of dishe you feel you're like talking to the air but uh you know slowly I kind of you know more or less start to make a a name in the near reaction scene as it was known back then and then Nikolan comes out right Nickan makes this huge splash with the dark enlightenment and he like goes right wing and uh and he was living in Shanghai. So I was right there. I just I sent him an email, you know, would you like to meet for drinks and you know, we can talk about this stuff? I don't think you have many other near reactionary people around. He was Yeah, sure. I was like, oh wow, dude. And I I didn't know about the guy at all. I mean, I wasn't a leftist reader back in the day, but you know, I knew he was famous and he was

05:24 one of us, so I thought it would be cool to meet. So we meet in Shanghai and you know we're a guy, super nice, polite, down to earth, very English gentleman type and we did drinking and you know talking serious stuff and you know I felt like an intellectual in the cafes of Vienna. felt pretty cool for for once instead of just [ __ ] posting on the internet and you know we started talking stuff and he he had this idea back at the time that uh you know like cities were the future that capitalism was uh coalesing in this like huge capitalist centers like Shanghai or Singapore and the future will be that it will be semi-independent and uh you know the countryside was just be like enslaved by these big capital

06:10 cities is he thought like Singapore was the future. He was really uh enamored by by Singapore. And uh thing is he he lived in in China for a long time, but he didn't speak Chinese, which I did. And uh I didn't I I've never lived in Singapore, but you know, I've been there. I knew the place. And I always thought it was the lamest place ever. It was this super boring, lame place. Nothing going on, no influence, no intellectual anything. I was like, "Really? Singapore's future?" I think we just talked about this. >> I was, you know, this, again, we guy, but it was like, I don't think you know what you're talking about. I was really wanting to find something to u to argue against it. And I go back home and I

06:55 just read this um interview by Beliko, who was alive at the time, and he said that, you know, how successful Singapore was, how rich they were, and he was saying that, you know, Japan was doomed because they didn't have kids. So the the real estate prices were going down and blah blah blah and I got really angry because I I used to live in Japan and I like it much more than I like Singapore and and that's how I came with Acro. I wrote a post which I think is leaning uh I don't know a title. I mean it's it's a 20 >> is a [ __ ] idiot. Not quite that, but I was like Harry. Again, I call him Harry Lee because that's what he used to go by before he was president. Anyway, I read a post about it. I was

07:40 like, Singapore is this place which only sustain has a a birth rate of like 0.7 and it only sustain itself because it attracts smart immigrants from China and then it just puts them in the right race. They just work themselves to death and they don't have any kids. So the the the thing that makes them valuable, right, the the the IQ genetic material that they have is shredded in order for to make liquid use uh real estate prices go up. >> Yes. >> So I mean Nick Lance's idea that the future was Singapore was like how can there be any future if you're just shredding the good stuff, right? Eventually they're going to run out of it. I mean China is a big place. There's a lot of good IQ genans. But if Singapore crepes keeps

08:25 shredding them and uh getting the smart people and making them unable to have kids, but that's not going to work long term. And that's how I came up with the with the shutter. >> Yeah. And I I think the concept basically has now been generalized to pretty much every city, right? Like if you want to think about the net effect of San Francisco on the human race. >> Oh, it is. We've attracted all of the best and brightest minds in the world to this one city and then immediately nuked their fertility rate down to like negative zero, right? >> Yeah. >> Like so >> no and and I was I was a bit unfair to Singapore because it's by I mean the the birth rate of Singapore is higher than Shanghai these days and not any lower than any big city in Asia and you know more or less the same as any big city in

09:10 the west by now. So is that >> I don't think I don't think the criticism like applies like specifically to Singapore more so than any other place, but it is just like literally every city has this effect, right? And like you can argue over like oh well this city this city has like a 2% higher TFR than this city, >> but like does it in the end? Like they're all going to zero. >> Yep. >> Yeah, it's not good. >> So I don't know. It was uh when I when I read about the actual meaning of this concept, I was kind of horrified cuz like we've been having our own existential thing on this podcast for a little while where we're like what what are you supposed to do? Like what does anything mean? How do I feel anything? It's >> and >> yeah, I mean to his credit, Nick Land did take the criticism uh seriously and

09:56 he wrote a post on it and I do think I had some influence in his thinking afterwards. And you know, it's been a long time since and you know, trap happened and the vibe shift and whatever. But the one thing that there's really no nobody has any idea how to fix is is the accurate shredder is is the birth rate. We're still shredding the most valuable genes that make everything valuable that we have and nobody has any idea how to fix it. And it would appear that it's literally like like every single country in the entire world is doing this also. Like you can point you can say oh it's because of this factor and then it's like but there's another country that isn't doing that factor and they're also going to zero right and it's like it's like literally every single social

10:41 factor right now is just saying like okay TFR goes down. >> There's one country there's one country that not only one >> which is >> really >> is that true? I've heard that that's not true. Actually, >> it's going up and uh yeah, I mean people say that it's because of the the the heredin the hetic like uh weirdo Jews. >> But for for context here for the podcast in in Israel there's like normal like normalish people uh uh who are just you know Israeli Jews but you know they have technology whatever and then there's like the settler ultraorththodox Jews that don't use technology. They have the weird hairstyles, etc. Um, but the ones

11:28 in Israel specifically look very Middle Eastern. And then these guys, I think historically the birth rate was up there, right? It was like on par with the Amish. >> Yeah. >> It's like five or six, like really high. >> Yeah. I think it still isn't. Again, the the men don't work and they're subsidized by the state to not work. So they're on welfare basically. >> What? >> Yeah. Like the guys >> Yeah. They're all basically on welfare. >> Yeah. And >> it's like very slightly more convoluted than this, but yes. Like they all get paid to like study the Torah, right? Or something. >> Yeah. And they have like six plus kids eachish. And but again, even the the secular Jews in Israel, I guess because of the sense of competition, like they have to keep up because they don't want to lose their country to to those guys.

12:14 I think it's still two plus. So they are reproducing themselves. >> Yeah. So this is another thing that's like lost on people who are just in America. But there's like a pretty big political divide inside of Israel between like the secular Jews and the the ultraorththodox Jews where the ultraorththodox ones are like the more bloodthirsty ones, but they're also the ones that uh like they don't have to fight uh any wars or anything. So it's super funny. It's like if imagine if all like the the heartland chuds in America were like chanting like Modern Warfare 2, like American Empire, but then only the libs had to go fight the wars. [laughter] >> Imagine Yeah. imagine the Amish were like 30% of the population and they were like that.

13:01 >> Yeah, it's it's pretty funny. Um, but I [clears throat] I I don't want to contradict you too far and I'm not that confident about it, but I'm fairly sure that the the rate has gone down for them. >> Um, is the Amish rate down too? I've heard that the Amish rate is down as well. >> I know the Mormon >> I know the Mormon rate is down a lot. I don't know about the Aish. >> The Mormons were kind of the last hope, right? It was like the last like >> yeah they were above three like five years ago but I think now they're like hovering about two and they're like just they're going to go below two like and within five years for sure. >> It's rough dude. So, do you think it's even possible to maintain like an actual like I mean even at this point above replacement TFR in any sort of modern

13:48 large country like could America do it because it's very different to say like Israel has a positive TFR than it is it's like saying like oh Greenland has a positive TFR right it's like you have 100,000 people you could actually at this point just go like have have like a hundred infantry men go doortodoor and like point guns at husbands and wives and say like you must reproduce and that will improve it. That's part of what happens in Israel. >> That's the thing. Like America still has a higher birth rate than Europe. And you know, people say it's because, you know, you have more land, right? You have bigger houses. It's it's just easier in general. And sure it is, but Israel doesn't have a lot of land. Israel is a very small country. Everybody lives in small apartments and they still have, you know, three kids on average, two for the normal people. I I have, you know, I have I have Israeli friends and they're

14:33 not ultraorththodox. They're just normal people and they have three, four kids each. It's part of the culture. >> Do you think do you think that unironically the sense that Israel like uh a lot of Israeli media and a lot of the sense of what Jewish people feel is like we are under constant assault like our people are being slaughtered like they're trying to kill us? Do you think this this makes people more likely to just reproduce like crazy? Cuz if somebody told me that like if somebody was constantly I mean think about white nationalists also, right? like you white nationalists consume a bunch of rhetoric about how like it's over for you, you're dying, your people are being killed and then the result is they're all like I have to have a bunch of kids like I have to do it right now, right? >> I do think it's a thing. I like look at you know when Afghanistan has a higher

15:18 the highest birth rate out of Africa, right? I think it's like six or seven. And when people tell them, you know, when they do interviews to these like peasants in in the countryside, they talk to women, oh, you know, my boys my boys will die in the war, but I will have more. And they're like, you know, I I need to have all these babies because we're in constant like clan warfare, and the only way that my family is going to survive is that if I if I rush, right? I need to rush my troops and I need to produce more soldiers. And uh yeah, it's a really nice way of putting it. But if you look off China and China now has apocalyptic birth rate. It's like 0.8. It's on some place have 0.4. Nobody's having kids. The the whole thing is hopeless. And within historical memory

16:04 then the the Chinese were having like seven or eight kids each. Even in places like Singapore like Singapore like people were having seven kids just before independence. And what happened and back then back in the day the the Chinese didn't think themselves as this unitary nation or whatever they had all these clans and clans were constantly fighting each other right and the old you couldn't trust anyone this whole thing about high trust societies I mean that's good because it's pleasant but if you have a low trust society where everyone is up to is out to get everyone else and your family is always in danger of you know just getting like completely murdered and whatever the only way that you can sustain your family status and prosperity and lives is to zerbrush,

16:49 have a bunch of kids and hopefully one of the 10 kids you have will amount something and we'll get to the government that will protect you. >> Well, there's also an issue where like the kids require much more investment right now. Like, >> yes. >> If you're in the Bay Area, if you're in the Bay Area and you're budgeting for a kid, this means even if you just get one room for one kid, okay, one room for one kid, which God knows like very few kids are sharing a bedroom in the Bay Area in San Francisco or in California or in like coastal or urbanite America at all, right? Um, that's like immediately you don't want to send them to any of the public schools, right? Uh, we all know why. So, number one, that's like at least $20,000 a year basically. Like

17:35 that's like a like for an upper middle class or lower upper class, however you want to divide it, that's $20,000 a year. That's like another half a million dollar in home equity for an extra room, >> right? And then college prices, I think nowadays some parents have stopped really caring about college because they're like AI or whatever. >> Um, things have gotten so out of control. also that people feel like it's going to break by the time that I'm increasingly hearing from a lot of people who have a lot of money is I'm going to get my kid accepted into like the Ivy and then they're going to go for one semester and then they're going to meet everyone they have to and then they're going to drop out. If you just give people money, like if I give you $5,000 to have kids, who has kids now? Like it's not like you or me, right?

18:21 It's like it's someone who's like $5,000, bro. Like I ain't never seen this in my bank account. Like that's crazy, bro. >> Yeah. That's why I've always said it needs to be it should be like a a a tax write off. >> Like it should be a percentage. So I've always said this is like my policy thing has always been per kid you should get a multiplicative 10% decrease on your tax bill. [snorts] So your first kid is 10% off your tax bill. Your second kid is 9% off your tax bill. And so so like it's a decreasing right because it's multiplicative. Um, but like it needs to be a percentage of the money you make because otherwise, you know, you're like, >> right, because otherwise >> your I keep shredding on one end and you're like you're like [ __ ] maxing on

19:07 the other. >> It's like you're getting if you give cash handouts to get the wrong people to have kids, right? >> Yes. >> It's not just about the fact that like raising like a kid for like an upper middle class person takes a lot more money than anybody than like most other groups. And like also the upper middle class kid takes pretty much the same amount of money as like a truly upper class kid. Like not a billionaire level, but like right below like a a a decimillionaire or like a very low centillionaire is not spending significantly more money on their kid than like the normal upper middle class coastal urbanite. Um, in fact, I would say that like a flyover. Someone the other day called this this group of

19:53 people like local maximums. This is like the guy who lives in Louisiana and owns like 20 car dealerships or the guy who has like the waste management the big waste management company in some like tier 2 tier three city in America. Like these people actually probably waste a lot less money than like a journalist couple that makes like 220k a year in New York. Like these people probably actually waste way less money than that couple does on their kids. >> Yeah. >> I mean people say that kids cost a lot of money and they don't. I mean they didn't have to. There there's this right of of guess uh Wolf TV the guy who used to read Palladium and uh he he lives in SF I think or in the Bay Area

20:38 >> which is we met him for a bit. >> Yeah. Which is the most expensive place in the world and you know he's not making AI money. He's like he's like a word cell and he has like a bunch of kids. He was always writing about you know the kids don't need their own rooms and you don't need to spend that much money in kids and it is true and again yeah sure in America you don't want to take the kids to public school but that's not a factor in Japan say or in China at all like there's no problem in the public schools are great but nobody's having kids either. People spend money because I mean, you know, you have the kid there and uh you sigh up yourself into thinking that you have to just be aesthetic and do everything for the kids because, you know, if one woman is being annoying and just being super aesthetic

21:23 and spinning everything on the kids, all the other women feeling adequate and >> exactly what I was going to say is I think America has this like unique cabal of like uh women that screech like if you have >> it's not unique at all. It's not unique at all. It's It's everywhere. >> It's It's unique and it's uniquely empowered, I think. Right. Because there actually is. >> Yeah. Nowhere nowhere else is empowered. I will say we're not to the same extent certainly. >> No, no. It's it's bad all across the Western world and across the civilized yellow world. I would say it's the same everywhere. >> And you have like a farmer's mentality with this, right? Where like if the kid falls and he scrapes his knee, I'm just like, "Yeah, it's like it's fine, dude." Like >> [ __ ] dude, man. It's not like and then they'll be like, "Dude, he has to go to the hospital." Like, "How do we know he didn't fracture his like patella?"

22:08 >> Uh, back to what Sale was saying, of course, giving more status to man like artificially or whatever, that's the best solution. That would actually work like really well, but that's politically possible in the Western world and the eastern world. So, that's not going to happen. as for what governments can do in you know we think what's politically possible uh cash handas again we don't want to do because uh the wrong people end up having kids tax write outs are a good idea but >> probably politically unfeasible like whenever you you require like 110 IQ to explain why a policy is the right policy it just doesn't work >> it isn't >> the idea of tax writeoffs is not something you like you cannot even

22:54 explain deductions to people really uh yeah we cannot explain >> Hungary was doing something similar right Hungary was doing something like that I think it was wrong because it was giving that it was giving the the right upload to women so if a if a Hungarian woman have three kids she didn't pay an income tax but you know no it has to be the guy it has to be the man right >> it has to it has to be the man there's like no other way >> the thing with tax write offs do like assume that people think that far in the future and yeah if you're married and you have two kids but I think specifically the upper middle class which are like the people that get shredded the most because they compare themselves to the lower upper class because they inhabit the same kind of spaces. >> Um I think specifically these people get owned by the planning a lot um

23:42 >> because they are looking so far ahead and they are like how am I going to like they're trying to keep up in spending with people who have literally 10 times as much capital as them. >> Exactly. >> Right. Um, and so it's very difficult for these people to spend less. It's not like the hospital. It just it's just that calculus of like, okay, I'm in America. I need to send my kid to private school. So, I need to give him like 20 I need to budget $10,000 a year until this kid is like 22 years old effectively. And that's like on the lower end probably. And that's just education costs, right? And then, yeah, it's a lot of what you said, like the mommy group chat. You know, someone

24:27 bought their kid like a super, you know, cute onesie that's like the latest fashion instead of being like, "Hey, grandmother, like, do you still have my clothes from when I was like a little baby?" Like, I think this is where you can save a lot of the money is like, "Yes, your kid will wear shoes that are slightly too big or slightly too small. >> You just have to be really antisocial." But like this is the whole thing with women is that they're specifically not like antisocial in this way, right? Like I can go like everyone can be like, "Yeah, we're going to go and we're just going to like Uber Eats food or whatever." And I can just be like, "I'll just skip the meal if I don't want to pay." It's like we're on the top of like a mountain and I don't want to pay like $240 for Uber Eats. Like I can just be like, "Yeah, I don't want to do this." Uh, and as a guy, it's like people will give me [ __ ] and say that's weird, but like it's not the end of the world.

25:12 Whereas like if a girl opts out of whatever the group is doing, they're now like shun like you're bad. >> Um, one thing I always think about is, you know, when I'm just out trying to park my car and I'm having trouble finding a spot, I'm thinking, why do I need to look for parking? I should have reserved parking for good people, right? This kind of like policy, small privileges, I think that will go a long way. >> Yeah, I think that goes a long way. I think it would go much better than just cash handouts, right? If you had like the whole of society was engineered so that you know people with more than three kids have like small privileges like that. You would feel special. It would feel cool. It would feel like >> Well, it it used to also be that if you didn't have kids or a wife, you were

25:58 basically considered like [ __ ] or people would talk people would assume you were gay or like just something weird was going on and you would be effectively ejected from like polite society. Like there were jobs where if you wanted to make partner, you needed to find a wife. Like if you like if you are Don Draper and you want to make partner at the law at the at the like marketing, you know, the the copy firm, you need like a wife and you don't just need like a wife like a marriage certificate. You need like a an apt and appropriate wife. >> Where he didn't have, but he tried. >> Yeah. >> Well, she like looked okay on paper for a period of time, I think. Yeah. But yeah, >> it's like the type of wife where like you need like a thin wife who knows how

26:45 to bake and like there are certain traits that are like socially more acceptable. Like if you pull up to your your like high school friend's, you know, barbecue and you have like a thin wife who talks about cooking and whatever, it's like this is acceptable. If you pull up and you have like the the the male like fertility goddess e wife that I found in the wheat fields of Agartha, they just instantly kick you out. [snorts] >> Yeah, it doesn't go over great. >> I think China will get there first. China has the ability to say, you know, if you don't have three kids, you don't get promoted in the party, right? You don't get promoted as a bureaucrat. You don't get promoted in your company. China could do that, and I think they will. They haven't done yet. I think it's about time they do it. Who knows

27:30 when they will, but >> now is when they do the pivot. Like if they do the pivot now, uh it's just like spectacular execution from China. Every year that they don't do the pivot, it starts to get a little more worrying that like either they don't think it's possible to do the pivot or they haven't figured out that they have to do the pivot >> or they just don't know how is the other thing cuz like that like oh if you don't have enough kids you don't get promoted with the within the party. Like I still like that to me is a bit of a hazy policy because anything that uh like >> No, but I mean they it used to be the other way around, right? It used to be that if you had more than one kid, you didn't get promoted in the party. They had the apparatus, they had the laws, they just have to change the number. >> Used to be one, now it's three, right? It it's it's just changing one thing in

28:15 in the law. And they could do that. I think they could get away with it. And I think they will like within five years. >> Women have defected from the equilibrium basically. And so anything that you do that privileges women in a way where it doesn't prevent them from defecting doesn't actually like solve anything, right? It's like if you force people to have more kids now to get promoted, it's like you've now like you are pointing a gun at all of the men and saying like you must take on extra risk in order >> you just you're just giving them a poke, right? You're not saying you know if you don't do that you go to jail which they used to do, right? They used to force you to have abortions. it was pre-brittleled. Now it's easier than that is like you know you want to have you you want to get ahead in life then you have to do this and again it's not a

29:01 huge thing and again so there's a silver lining with the uh with the birth crisis is that you know nobody's having kids but that means that the retards are not having kids either and that is good right >> I think the are having kids man I was >> I'm like starting to get quite worried about this >> they're not they're actually not I mean that used to be our worry our worry was that the worst people having kids the good people weren't Now, if you look up the other the stats, nobody's having kids, even the low >> totally figure out how to use condoms. Like, there was a long period where it was like, you know, how they would have a statistic that says like, oh, condoms are only 88% effective. And then you look at the actual methodology for the study and it's just because the bottom 10th percentile cannot figure out how to use a condom. Like, they don't they can never apply it properly. And the studies that are like slightly

29:47 more honest will say like condom and then they don't say like not a [ __ ] using it but they say like condom applied properly and it's like 99.8% 8% like uh yeah >> I mean >> dude even even uh I mean none of our viewers should should use this knowledge because it wouldn't be a great idea and I absolutely will not hold myself responsible for anything that happens in your life but like you can even like period track and um like the the radon being able to period period track and like avoid >> dude worked for my entire life >> and everyone is like this is impossible it's pseudocience science hoax. It's like I >> It's the official teaching of the Catholic Church >> that you're allowed to to like period

30:32 track to not have kids. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They they they actually promote this uh period tracking system by some Japanese guy, which is pretty funny because I'm I'm pretty sure he wasn't a Catholic, but uh when you get and I got those when when I got married first. Uh when you go when you get married in in in a Catholic church, they give you this like small course like for a week or two and and they teach you that. be like you know no condoms no anything if you must space births that's the only approval approved way of doing it and it's you know peer tracking by this uh I don't remember the name but any any good Catholic in in the audience will will know >> so sorry what is what is your to kind of wrap it like wrap this thing what is your like uh you know spandrel's in charge you get to do whatever policy you

31:17 want what is your like grab bag of policies to make people have kids again >> what you want is for the good people who are already mostly getting married having one or two kids. You're wanting to have five instead of two, right? >> Yeah. >> So, >> yeah, they are having like one or two kids. They just have them like very late. >> Uh and it's like this huge suffering. I think a lot of it is also the boomer problem. Like the boomers like uh kind of do not pass on wealth until they are very very very old. >> Yeah, that's a problem. >> No longer really useful. >> When the boomers were born, their parents didn't have any wealth. So again, it shouldn't be about money. >> Well, they didn't have wealth, but it was like a lot easier. I'm I'm I'm not necessarily saying like, oh, we literally need to like forcefully redistribute Boomer money to their kids

32:03 or anything. >> No, no, we should we should we should never mind because we are saying that >> we are absolutely saying that we should we should confiscate all Boomer and give it to the >> I think my view is that like so I I talk about this a lot. This is like one of the things I talk about where if I was more conscientious like you and I was less lazy, I would have a blog post that I could point to it or it' have like a word that I coined for it. But like one thing I think about a lot and I talk about a lot is that the the inflation indexes uh are are sort of extremely out of control when you consider the price of things that are not really luxuries. So like healthcare, right? Or like housing, right? Like these are things that historically were not considered luxury.

32:49 But if you consider like mobile device or luxury clothing or luxury suitcase or like a business class flight, all of these things have gotten a lot cheaper. All the things you really don't actually need in life have gotten a lot cheaper and it's a lot more tempting to keep consuming them and loudly consume them because there's this social cycle of consuming them. But then the things that are really important like space to put my children, you know, or like the the social costs of like finding a wife or finding a husband with shared values and that, you know, has not done a bunch of things to ruin their life. >> All of these things are much more expensive. >> They are in America. And again, I want to caution. I know you two are Americans and I guess 90% of your audience is American, but school is not expensive in

33:34 China. Healthcare is not expensive in China or in Japan or in Singapore. And the birth rate is even lower than in America. So people are not having kids because they don't have any money because of school costs. That's what they say. But that's not true. May maybe it would be true. Maybe if if healthcare and schools in America have the same price as as in Japan. >> It's just observably untrue to me because you can look at the poorest dumbest people in America and they have the most kids, right? It's like when people say that people in America are getting fat because they don't have enough money. It's like obviously they have too much money to buy food and that's why they're eating too much of it, right? Like it's just observably wrong. You cannot look at the poorest, dumbest people doing the thing in a way that somehow the rich people can't

34:19 figure out because they don't have enough. >> The real problem is again, yes, the social cost of having a a wife that you actually love and she's a good wife is is >> setting exorbitantly high. Yes, >> it's impossible. And that is common to all the world that that's the one thing all the men in every single country go on Twitter and by far the easiest way to get any engagement is to [ __ ] on women right it's the one thing that will get you likes from all over the world you look at half of India like twothirds of China everybody will say [ __ ] yeah [ __ ] women because all men all over the world has have this common problem women are intolerable these days or at least compared to what they used to be so that is one thing and that is not about Right. That is, you know, it's a it's another

35:05 social problem. If I'm king, uh, what do I do with women? Well, the dog can be started. But, uh, [laughter] >> I like how he says like, "This is the one way you can cheaply engagement bait on the internet and get a lot of followers." It's like, >> but then it's like, I'm not above that easier. Like, this is also objectively >> I mean, I don't I don't verify it on Twitter. I don't get any money. I don't engage. I don't engage bait. I like it. It's It's annoying for my >> No, no, you don't. A a very good follow. Actually, highly recommend following Span. >> But every time I just [ __ ] on women because I feel like it, I get like 5,000 likes. And again, it it it [ __ ] my notifications and I get all these weird replies that I don't want. But it is true. I mean, that's the one common problem that all men feel they have all

35:50 over the world. >> Yeah. Did you notice the like literally yesterday I wrote a tweet that was like women don't understand how men feel about tattoos? And it's like like I'm not even saying tattoos are bad. Like I'ming it's like a you know it's a not super disguised like meta point, but it is like a meta point, right? Like I'm not saying tattoos are bad. I'm just saying like women don't seem to have realized how men feel about tattoos. And it's like >> or anything really actually. Like you can expand that to they lack empathy like category. >> If you are a girl with like a a high theory of mind for what men like, you unironically b that like two points above how how good-looking you are. >> Yeah. Like six to an eight instant.

36:35 >> Unironically instant six to an eight. >> Yeah. I would actually even argue that it's like two and a half or three. It is it like I'm I'm thinking about all the problems that I've had >> in terms of marriage. It might be two and a half in terms of like, you know, like a random hookup. Obviously not. But yeah, in terms of marriage, yes, absolutely. Cuz it is just like you need to just not know when to say specific things that it's like, you know, my my example is always like, yes, everything is destroyed. Like both of us have heinous pasts that we never want to know about from each other, right? It's like all you have to do is like just not randomly bring it up to me. And it's like I will willingly pretend that it doesn't exist. Like I will willingly lie to myself and say, "Oh yeah, she probably never did this stuff that all those other girls did, right?" You just

37:20 have to not randomly be like dropping hints or like breadcrumbs to stories that are like outlining the specific like heinous thing that you did. And they all do that. Like they cannot help themselves, but just like randomly docks the worst thing in the universe. >> Yeah. I I do think also Spandrel is great cuz you're one of the guys who's married who you're like, "Yeah, dude. It's really There's two types of married guys. There's like the ones who are like, "Dude, it's not that hard. I did it and I'm so ugly, man. I'm a fat [ __ ] and look at my wife." There's like the all you do is walk up to her and give her a fur man. >> Here's the wife guy. And then there's the most misogynistic guy ever who's like, "Holy [ __ ] dude. It's so over for you." >> I come from a long tradition. Again, I'm not Anglo. And you know in in all

38:06 countries but Agua countries or Germanic countries uh you know the greatest tradition was everybody got married but everybody was constantly [ __ ] on their wife right the one thing you did in public no like bragging about having a good wife was the worst thing you could do you would lose all your friends immediately and I think that's you know that's a good tradition that should be continued yeah I mean everybody's married and you know marriage is okay but uh when somebody asked me I tell them never get married women suck marriage sucks And uh that's just again lindy and and and and good and that's what people should do. >> The total wife guy >> I always say that >> wife like the guy helicopters [laughter] >> dude wife guys are like the least likable people of all time.

38:52 >> When somebody tells me they're getting engaged I say I congratulate uh kids. I don't congratulate marriages. >> So when you have a kid, good for you. I'll congratulate you. when you get married, I'm like, up to you, man. >> The only guy who like goes to a wedding and like they already have like a bastard son and he's like, "Holy [ __ ] this is awesome. You guys got a head start." >> But uh you know, I always say that you should have a kid before marriage because you want to test, right? You don't want to be the guy who gets married and for for whatever reason, you you can't have kids. Dude, that's so funny. The problem is also nowadays that uh you are kind of forced into all the promises of marriage uh without any of what it used to like you're you're forced into all the historical you know

39:38 like you you share your assets and whatnot without any of the like uh positive things that marriage used to >> that's the thing I didn't get married in the west and I wouldn't right I'm lucky because you know I live abroad I married a foreigner and worst case they're going to happen to me I cannot get divorced raped because I can always leave, right? I will get the [ __ ] out and my asses will be abroad and and [ __ ] up. >> This is also a thing that a lot of like a worrying amount of wife of people who are married and not wife guys say to me is like the secret is you have to make her think that you will always leave on the drop of a hat if something bothers you. like you are f it's like what's the guy who's like um what movie is it where the guy says the famous quote where it's

40:24 like I'm always five minutes away from leaving >> that's no there's there's a name for that and I I loved it I think it was Roy or Hartist maybe I'll plug >> there's a movie where they say this famously I mean chateau artist might have it might have been there as well but there is like a famous movie where the guy goes like that's the thing about me I'm always ready to drop everything >> he calls it dread game. It was like the the best way to keep a woman on her on on on her uh you know on her place is to pull the dread game. That's that's a last resort. Like be careful with it. But if you play the dread game uh she will always be nice to you. And I always thought it was brilliant. >> Yeah, dread game. Just keep her in dread. Like you know if she pull if she

41:09 pressures you too much you will leave and she'll never hear about you again. >> That's like total war gender edition. Yeah, it's it's mutual for destruction. It's not something you I mean I I I w I wish I wouldn't I didn't have to do that, >> but it's in this day and age is the only card you have. >> It is an incredibly powerful card. >> Yep. >> Do you have any other uh about it is like the most successful way to uh if you want to just blitz all of these battles, it is just like once you're locked in, you just care less. And like both sides know this also. So, we're just doing infinite race to the bottom of like, yeah, I have more power because I don't give a [ __ ] >> Yeah, I mean, exactly. I mean, a woman

41:54 can always, you know, she can call the cops. She can destroy her life on a whim. She can. That's just how it is. But if the only way you can counter that is, you know, I can just I can get I can get a [ __ ] up. I I can leave the country. And if you don't have that, it's really hard. I really respect my friends who just have a normal life in their in their home countries and have to put up with, you know, modern women. I I wouldn't be able to >> What is your like uh finding a wife advice? >> Um I found mine in I mean I found mine in in in college. Pretty normal story. Uh we got married. >> Not looking so bullish for us, is it? >> That is so funny, man. So then you wind up thinking you finally

42:40 found like the secret alpha and he's going to divulge how to navigate the modern marital waters. And then he's like, "Yeah, just like find a good one in college. [laughter] >> Just find the good one five years ago." >> Again, I I'm not the guy to ask. I I you know, I was always the kind of guy who played in normal mode. I don't like a challenge. I don't like to make my life harder than it should be. And you know, I I I I went to college in Japan. And I I you know I'm very mobile. I'm good at languages. When I have a problem, I just leave. How to find I mean I bet I'm sure I would have h I would have found someone back home if I had stayed. But uh yeah, I mean I'm not really the guy to ask about how to navigate modern women in place. >> How long how long did you date before

43:26 you got married or or not just married but like significant level of commitment that like like you understand what I'm really asking here? I'm not really asking specifically marriage. I'm asking there should be like some kind of term for this, but it's like >> I have invested enough socially, financially, time-wise into this relationship, emotionally that like it would be a massive bummer, >> right? So, I I I was never a fan of dating and the whole date thing, you know, you go to a place, you go to a mall, you go to here, you go there, and you know, you meet once a week. I I just never like that. So I again me fight in college we were kind of friend we were friends for a while and you know there was some tension there and after we got intimate

44:16 we basic I just basically moved into her apartment but I had my place but I just basically was staying with her all the time and we lived together for the rest of of college. I'm like, if again, you know, people are always like kind of paranoid because, you know, what if he's cheating on me? What if he's dating other guys? And I never had that problem because I was just >> just move in, bro. >> I was just I'll let him move in, right? And um we were always together all the time. So, we were very close the whole time. And eventually, I was like, uh I wanted to move out to some other place. and uh she would have to quit her job we had which she had just got to be with me and she was like I'm not quitting my job if we don't get married and I was like that's fair and so we got married and

45:03 that was that was shortly after graduation so I know three years >> okay >> and then she got pregnant shortly afterwards and that was that >> just like a shockingly normal story it always winds up this way this is the other thing is every single time you find a guy who like uh you're like, you know, this guy's strung together kind of an interesting like outside the system thing like uh let's let's ask him for the secret alpha on this one. And every every single one of the guys if they're honest will just be like I don't [ __ ] really know, man. Like I I don't really think my thing is applicable to any other person out there. Like I'm not going to tell you how to live your lives. And you're just like, you know, it's like it's totally honest and true, but also that's not what the viewers want. The viewers want like a strict

45:49 father figure coming in and telling them like, "Listen here, son. This is how you get a wife." Like that's what they want. [laughter] >> Yeah, that is. It's not what the viewers want. That's what like everyone want. Like everyone wants to believe that it's like the opposite of catharsis, right? Where catharsis is like you, you know, you do something wrong and you intrinsically want punishment for it. It's like the opposite. like you want to be told there's like a wrong way to do things such that you feel that there is like a moral ordering to life, right? And sometimes the answer is literally just like, "Yeah, sorry man. Like I just got lucky. Like I just met the girl in college, you know?" >> This is also every single guy I know that like likes their current arrangement now, the response is just like, "Yeah, I don't know. I think I kind of got lucky, man." >> Yeah. >> I think it was very highly luck. The

46:34 whole gang thing was very white because in men's you could fake it, right? You could learn some tricks and you would get women. That doesn't work in Asia at all. >> I don't think game works anywhere anymore. >> Probably not. It's funny because I was reading about I was obsessed with gay. I was I was really enjoying all those blogs and books all there. I didn't need it because you know I was in Japan and uh I already >> I already had a super pleasant wife and I was playing Mario Kart all game all day with my with my friends >> like on manure forums for the for the love of the game. >> Exactly. I was just wow this is so interesting. But then you know I had a a naked Asian girl in in my bed just watching me play Mario Kart and just cheering up. I was like wow I don't need any [ __ ] but it's really interesting.

47:20 But >> I mean it is just conceptually interesting as like a psychological construct and the way it like propagated through society and then basically got debunked by everyone. Like the fact that your average college woman knows what a neg is and like if like Mr. mystery method guy walks up to her and tries to do his epic game, she will respond with like, "Are you utilizing the tactic from Rolo Tamasi's the rational male chapter 8 line 372 negging >> on me?" [laughter] Yeah, there's there is currently like a level of like looking at the camera that exists with game that did not exist uh >> historically. Like people are just very aware of what's going on. And I think actually if you do super hard I I never

48:06 consume this kind of stuff. Uh, and then I wanted to say one funny thing about a mutual. Um, I never consume this stuff, but I think nowadays if you do super hard game, you're actually selecting for like either a really stupid girl who doesn't understand what's going like if you do it really hard, right, you can always incorporate a few things. Um, or you're selecting for a girl who like wants someone to run game on her. Like whether that's like just whether she's conscious of that or not. >> Yeah. It's like on on some level like there's a selection. And then I was going to say about Chateau Hartist. I I have a friend who's like a like one of the wife guys who's like, "I don't know, man. Just find her in college, dude." Like very similar to you kind of. >> Um and he's done two things that are

48:52 very funny. Number one, he has downloaded all of Chateau Heart onto like multiple hard drives for his kids cuz he's like dead internet theory. all this stuff is going to get scrubbed off the internet. I need to save I need to preserve this for my children. >> Which is super funny because to me I I actually never really read Chateau Hartist. I read it after because Bap recommended it to me and and he mentioned it to me. Um but I actually really don't like the style. It's a little jarring to me. >> The the writing style is where he like where he just goes like you stupid [ __ ] just do the thing and like he writes like oneline arguments and hits return. It's too Andrew Tateesque for me. >> Does he do like manosisphere writing? He does like manosphere because I've never read it either. He does like

49:38 >> So he No, I I have read it just like >> he was in Manosphere. He basically invented this. >> He was the guy. This is like the proto like once this is like this is like me complaining about all of the tropes in like Neon Genesis Evangelion. >> Yeah. This is like complaining about Shakespeare or like the way the Bible writes about things like >> I'm not really complaining about all of it. I'm just complaining about a a specific thing which is like exactly what Andrew Tate latched off of basically like the right like okay another thing that a lot of people don't know Andrew Tate used to be like just a guy who tweeted on our corner of Twitter and he was like >> a lot of people don't know this like he would be like it's like stuff where he would be comparing whether it was hotter for you to be like a woman who transitioned into a man or a man who transitioned into a woman and he would

50:24 make up like he would make up like softest philosophical arguments uments for like why one is ontologically better than the other. >> That actually really humanized Andrew Tate to me like realizing like this was just a guy who had like 10,000 followers back in like >> dude he was like in group chats that we are in currently that are like still on the right but he just like left something >> super humanizing. And then the other thing he he always talks about is he says like look the way it works with with uh any couple like on both sides of it. He has like a very uh unromantic, very biomechanical take on this while being like a very romantic. Like he's a great dad, a great husband, he's a great guy overall, but he says like there is an invisible timer over your wife's head

51:09 and it resets every time you have sex and then it counts down and if that number ever hits zero, she immediately cheats on you. Like it's not because she hates you. It's just a biological imperative. And she he's like, "When you're not married, that number is like a week or two. Once you get married, maybe it becomes like a month, but that's it." Like that's there's the number, man. Like that's the way it works. >> I mean, it it's a worst case scenario. It's kind of paranoid, but uh >> you know, again, >> I think it's a very paranoid like unromantic. I think there is like a view of the world where like if that's the way things work, then I fundamentally need to approach marriage differently because marriage and like quote unquote love mean very different things than what I thought it was. Right. This is the

51:55 historic like boys are more romantic than women, which is just objectively true, right? >> It is in general. I would say it is. Yeah. I think it's also kind of true because girls used to quote unquote drop the handkerchief a lot more and like choose the guy >> and nowadays I feel like a lot of girls are like >> like it's very much just like okay who approaches me and that like a much more mercenarial view. >> So that's the thing if I had to give one piece of advice to anyone today is don't approach too much. Look for a girl who already likes you and that's what I've always done. And I guess I've lost a lot of [ __ ] because of that because I was lazy and I was just waiting for a sign and you know there's a lot of girls I I would have been able to to get if I had been more proactive. But I've really had

52:42 very few bad experiences with women because I always waited for a girl who already liked it. So I didn't have to fake anything. I didn't have to do any theater. I didn't have to run any game. >> Yeah. No, I think that's the that's the way to do it. Look like you can you can chase tail. >> Yeah. Um, but I would say like don't marry a girl who never gave you a sign. Dude, this works if there's girls out there that actually like you, right? But like every time I give this advice to people, it's like you wind up with like the world's most unfortunate man looking back at you and he's like, "That's never happened to me." And then everyone everyone's first impression is to be like, "Surely it must have happened to you at some point, right?" But it's like it's actually totally possible that it's just never happened to this guy. >> Yeah. But >> now more than ever, it's super possible.

53:28 >> If you're that guy, I would rather move to the Philippines and just get the bottom barrel village girl. >> And uh, you know, you'll be happier like that than, you know, just fake some high status persona and just being running game the rest of your life. It's just tiring. And again, some men enjoy the enjoy the hunt. I I know plenty of guys that do and they really like just you know chasing tail and doing this and doing that. I don't myself. I just really I really hate it just chasing tail and getting rejected and um it's again much better experience for me to just you know wait for a girl who already kind of is interested in you and then approaching and and sets. Of course you have to you have to uh you have to finish a deal. You have to be the one who

54:13 >> you got to seal the deal. Like >> you had to seal the deal, but uh you need something there instead of just winning her over from scratch because that's just not going to work. She doesn't like it. >> Yeah, I agree. Actually, it is so notable to a girl who just like absolutely loves you versus one who's like kind of on the fence and like needs convincing. And like the second one is like much more mechanically interesting in terms of like it's a really complex operation that you're running, right? You have to like [ __ ] around with all these like levers and [ __ ] and if you ever say like the wrong word, it just instantly explodes. But like long-term sustainability, is it possible to maintain this for a stable marriage? Probably not. >> Probably not. >> And again, some guys really enjoy that

54:58 and the mechanics of it. I have this I have this good childhood friend. He was really good-looking. He was really tall. was 6' 6' 6 I guess in American and it was really good-looking and uh he had all these girls all the time and he really liked to chase it all the time. He was just proud. He was prowling all the time and every now and then he'll get a really hot girl. He would just just you know get there and get in a club and she'll be just this close to him. I would just leave. I was like dude she was right there. It was like you know I don't really enjoy sex that much. I enjoy knowing that I could. I was like what >> the the other stuff I wanted to to talk about is so you're very well known for the IQ shredder and I actually think also biolinism I CEX says that you did

55:43 bioleninism also which is crazy you've all of these concepts that are uh >> those are my two big hits I guess >> I think it's crazy biolinism is like a very largely discussed thing and for a long time I actually didn't know it was you until I actually went through and I didn't read all of your blog but I read a decent chunk of It it is it is a very good blog actually. >> Um yeah, very very like well-maintained. It's a good blog. >> We actually just had Spandrel on the podcast because we need to ask him blogging advice, parenting advice, women advice. That's the whole It's like this is all billable like consulting hours that we've now scanned him into saying that it's >> makes you feel old back there. >> Dude, we're old. Like I'm I'm old. I

56:29 mean, SA is only 21 years old, but like I >> Dude, I'm not 21. You got to stop saying that. Keep working. Start actually thinking. Every every time he says it, he's like lowers it one or two years. So, the bioleninism, can you guys like explain this to me? Because I've seen it around all the time, and it's another one of those concepts I've contextually reconstructed, but I think it's probably complicated enough that I might have [ __ ] it up. >> Um, yeah, sure. Um so the idea is like communists had this thing where um you were only so they had like legal classes, right? >> Yes. >> You could be you could be a kac or you could be a a proletarian or or whatever and you you couldn't get far in in a communist country if if if the

57:14 government didn't think you you could be trusted and you could only be trusted if you were of solid like proletarian roots. So if you had any family background with everyone anyone had any amount of money then they thought you couldn't be loyal because you thought the the communist government was was worse than what came before. So you couldn't get in you couldn't get a you couldn't become a member of the party. You couldn't get far in in any uh in the work unit like they had. So the whole thing was that the only way to get ahead was to, you know, have be poor and have poor parents and poor grandparents and all that. And uh, you know, it kind of worked, right? Like the Soviet Union lasted 70 years. It kind of sucked, but it was pretty stable. And China,

57:59 I mean, they >> When you say it worked, sorry. Do you mean it it worked like it was a good idea or do you mean like it was stable and maintained power or maybe some mix of the two? He was stable of maintaining power in a system which was completely [ __ ] Right? You wouldn't think that if you read anything about Soviet Russia, it was completely [ __ ] in so many ways, so many layers of complete retardation. It's amazing that it lasted like over 10 years, but it did 70 long years. And why? Because, you know, they actually made sure that loyal people were put in place and disloyal or potentially disloyal people were either disadvantaged or or outright killed for a while, right? I mean that's how their politics work and how how do our politics work, right? And I was involved in politics for a while just at the time

58:44 that it was right. >> Wow, that's crazy. >> Yeah, I mean I I wasn't high up at the time but you know I I went I went back home for a couple years and I joined the political party and I was you know I've I've been all these years writing about politics. Maybe I should I should give it a try. So I gave it a try and I got to see how the sausage is made, right? how political parties work. >> And I realized that, yeah, of course, why is everything like [ __ ] up and [ __ ] and there's a reason for everything. And the reason that everything is is fake and gay in in the West today is because political parties run everything. And political parties are structured in a way that the only way to get ahead is to be, you know,

59:29 [ __ ] up, [ __ ] and fake and gay. The only way to get ahead in politics is if you have anything better to do, right? Because [snorts] politics doesn't pay well. And uh you know, if you're if you're an engineer and you're a very good engineer, you're going to be you know, you're going to get you're going to get ahead in in engineering and maybe if you're like enterprising, you're going to make your own you're going to start your own company and you're going to make a lot of money. But that's not how it works in politics, right? because there's no way of make, you know, there's no way of making money in politics. You're not selling a product. You're just getting elected. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> This has kind of been my grand theory of politics, too, is like >> if you're actually good at the messaging, PR, marketing, etc. required

1:00:14 to be a good politician. You can just go into marketing or PR. >> Exactly. You're going to make a lot of >> those things or sales and all of these things just pay infinitely more money. >> Infinitely better. like politics. The only way in which you can be financially compensated to a similar extent to just becoming a really good marketer or saleserson is by scamming the [ __ ] out of the system, right? So, you can just kind of by virtue of that fact assume that anyone who's involving themselves willingly in politics plans to scam the system, right? They're basically a second rate salesman whose plan to derive a massive income for themselves involves stealing it from taxpayers who are forced to subscribe to some service. they render >> right and you know office politics is a thing in in every in every company too

1:01:00 but still there's a thing that you know you have to perform it there's there's a job to do and you have to do the job and you're either good or bad at that and you know all companies have metrics which are better or worse but you know they're usually pretty accurate that assessing how good you are at your job but seeing how political parties work from the inside how you know they have they have all these clicks and they they're fighting all the time >> it's just kids also like if you go into politics you are theater kids right >> yeah there's a lot of that and you know there's this thing and that this was on the center right party in my country but I heard that from a bunch of countries in Europe and the center right you know all these parties have like a a youth branch a youth movement and 50% of the youth branch of the center right party

1:01:45 is gay like act like like actingly homosexual I was like 50% I mean I would buy 10, 20, maybe 50. I was like, "Yeah." >> Why do you think that is? >> Because they have nothing better. They have nothing else to do. They have nothing better to do. And you know, they have no family. They have no um I mean, it's it's a very gay job in a way, right? They just have to talk a lot and just make friends. >> It's like a eel job. Like the gay part of my brain is tingling saying like this would be the greatest thing that you could ever do in your life. [laughter] It really got me thinking about loyalty and you know how loyalty works and you know back to Shadow Hart was this quit that he he would say all the time. He was like loyalty only go so far as your

1:02:30 options right women are only loyal as far as their options. The more options they have the less loyal they will be and men should be the same way. I was like you know what yeah that's exactly how it works. People are loyal depending on the options they have. And why were like proletarians loyal to [ __ ] Soviet Russia with all its misery and oppression? Because they had nothing else to do. They had no other options. >> We might have actually, Dude, I think we just cracked it, SA. So, we've had this like ongoing thesis on the podcast basically that uh an increased efficiency of markets tends to just destroy humans enjoyments of the market. And we've been we've like we know that this is true observably, right? Like if you have a dating market that is hyper efficient, you can go on Tinder and you can swipe and find like 8 million people who are plus or minus like 2% of like

1:03:16 whatever your algo ranking is. Everyone instantly wants to kill themselves. And this is the explanation for that, right? Is if optionality is the inverse of loyalty, we've now basically removed loyalty from society. like it can't exist if everyone has enough options and there's a system that provides everybody with like both the workplace liquidity and the uh like the romantic liquidity that they need for everything then just no one is loyal to anything. Yes. You which means you can never trust anything right like if you can't be loyal you can't trust anything. So like everything is a rug now. you have to be. >> Well, it's just optionality is like actually like optionality like anything else like you know you should you should there should be more than one woman in your village, right? So that way if if

1:04:04 the only one who's there has some massive problem, you can go marry someone else. But if there's like 10 million women in your proverbial quote unquote village, like your actual realistic dating pool, it is now like incredibly difficult to Right. It's like the secretary problem where it's like there's some, you know, optimal search and obviously like this is very theoretical, but there's an optimal percentage of the sample that you go through in order to find the best secretary, right? >> Um, I also just want to say while we took a massive detour from your biolennis thing, that was an amazing weave back like just a god tier. We've been talking about this with Lucas a lot where like we notice some people are very good at we doing the weave and going in and out of topics and like referencing something back from the conversation. That was a god. We were

1:04:50 like two or three interruptions down and you like weaved it back into bioleninism. That was actually very impressive, man. >> Thanks. >> I mean it it's all connected, right? Like >> so yeah finish it finish it out. I think you're like right there. >> Yeah. Right. So again, I I lasted like three months in in in the party. I was never a member, but I was a volunteer and you know, I I got to volunteer in an election, which was a really fun experience and got to see how the party works in the inside all that and all these clicks. That was like I just couldn't stand it anymore. Three months later, I was like, "Fuck this [ __ ] I just go out and make money." And uh it started me thinking, who the hell stays here? Who the hell stays in this [ __ ] And >> you're either a psychopath or you have

1:05:36 nothing better to do. >> Exactly. And you know, >> it's it's one of those two groups. Like you either literally are dead set on being a politician, so you're probably a psychopath or Yeah. you have literally nothing better. >> And then again, Soviet Russia, right? They had nothing better. They had nothing else to do because there was not much else to do. But you know, there's a lot to do. >> Also, in Soviet Russia, you couldn't be a businessman, right? Like a lot of the other avenues were closed. And so that's how you get like hyper competent people going into government is like >> the bullet post for politicians is like >> what if you are just like a really ideologically driven person who is just you're like this is like politics actually do allow you to enact change in a society. I actually just want to change things for the better. Is that person really there? Do they actually exist or is this >> Well nowadays you can't really even

1:06:21 change things right. >> Yeah. So it's like like what are you doing? So like as soon as everybody realizes you can't change things, all of the like ideologically driven good uh like wholesome chungus people just leave. >> Exactly. I mean again it's being a politician is I mean if you're very vain and you really like the spotlight and all that maybe you like it but I at least for me it was not a good lifestyle. It was not a good life at all. I was like who the who the hell wants this? I was like yeah people have no other options in life and then it was like but who has no other options in life today? there's it's you know it's a free it's a free society and it was like well yeah there's just bad people people who are [ __ ] up in general and and again that applies to the whole just not

1:07:07 the party to the whole political machine right like who ends up as a bureaucrat in some low world and people have nothing else to do and and that's how the left works right that the communist did that and the right wing does that in in the smaller scale but the left is the actual political machine in every country. The left is what runs the whole thing and the right is, you know, the the small opposition that just tries to stop the the thing for a couple years. >> The right inherently loses politics. Like everything that the Fed right now leads me to believe that it's like it's just impossible to win politically as the right-wing. >> It is. I mean, >> well, I think I think what what you just said is correct. Like the right doesn't want to win. Like the the vision of the

1:07:52 right winning is like 2% lower taxes. Like the roads are really nice. The vision of like the left winning is like neon genesis evangelian. Like we unify all of humanity under one conscious brain and like the totalization like we emanitize the the escaton like the like it's like biblical levels of power, right? Curtis has the one really good phrase on this, which is like the the right cares about par power power the way the like a a wine mom cares about alcohol and the left cares about power the way an alcoholic cares about alcohol. >> Yeah, that that that was a way to >> Yeah. No, the political machine is insane. This is one of the things I volunteered for a couple elections when I was young. Um that was a very I think

1:08:39 that was very good for me. I think this is certain thing you should do once. Um, also because if you ever do want to do a political career, which you really shouldn't do until you have a lot of money and a lot of backing, but if you ever want to do a political career, like having volunteered even just once when you were younger, that will become recconed into like you were knocking on doors for hours and hours and hours of your life. >> Yeah. >> Um, like they all have the fake origin. This is another thing like another uh dark dark advice is like if you do something once or twice a year later you did it a bunch of times 5 years later oh yeah I like did this a bit 10 years later like you were a really big guy in those spheres like you can you can kind of like push the lie a little bit uh

1:09:24 which you shouldn't do but sometimes it becomes very useful for you to do right like like I went I like uh yeah this is just like a very useful whole thing uh in general is like if you do something once or twice you you're coming on the podcast and saying like you should consider me to be untrustworthy and if I ever say anything about myself you should assume that it's a lie. [laughter] The thing is I don't do this a lot on the podcast. That's like why I try to stay anonymous, right? Is because then I can be very honest online. Um and and like just generally with online people. Um but yeah, this is a huge I mean I've just seen people do this. I've seen like high school classmates of mine who played like American football like once or twice and were like a third string quarterback become like, "Oh,

1:10:10 dude, I was huge into into American football in college, man. In high school, I was huge. I was so good, dude. I was the problem." The problem with this thing is if you're doing if you're going to do this LAR, people do this LAR all the time with like weird niche internet communities and they'll be like, "Oh yeah, I was really big back on like this or this groups in the in the day." And then it's like you will at some point talk yourself into the room where everyone else has actually been in those things. And now they're going to be like, "Oh, dude. So you were like really big in this one specific like Bay Area underground techno scene when you were growing up. I was like a big DJ back in the day. Like what like what scenes did you run with, bro?" And now it's just over for you, right? Like you have uh you've embarrassed yourself in

1:10:55 front of everyone. Uh, everyone everyone did this in crypto all the time, too, where they would just like lar uh and then they meet up with people in real life. And it's like it's very different to LAR online to a crowd of mentally [ __ ] people than it is to like LAR your way into a room of people who like actually have like nine figure wealth and now you're trying to tell them about how you uh Yeah, bro. Like I got these crazy tax structures and like I only I only live here like four months out of the year. I go to Puerto Rico the rest of the time so that I'm like >> you're thinking about someone superic the way you like >> I am thinking about one specific guy who really embarrassed himself. [laughter] >> Yeah. Tell us tell us about China. So I almost did a a very big trip to China this year and I got totally wrecked by

1:11:40 the the war. Uh cuz my plan was to go to Dubai for a few weeks, see some friends, whatnot. Um and then go go over to China. Uh because I've never been to Dubai or to China at all. >> Sure. >> Tell us tell us about China. Like Okay. So you you moved to Japan for college? >> Chinese obviously, right? >> I do. Yeah. >> How how good of Chinese would you say you speak? He speaks good. >> I'm when I talk on the phone, I would say 60% of the people can't tell I'm part. >> That's very impressive. Yeah. Because like that's the only way you can enjoy China. If I've heard if I've heard a guy say they enjoyed China, they speak >> I I wouldn't say that. I mean, again, if you want to live here long term, then

1:12:25 yeah, eventually it's going to drag. >> If you want to live somewhere, you have to speak the language. And this is not even in like uh like, oh, you need to assimilate, man. It's just like there are obvious disadvantages to everyone speaking the language and not you. >> I will never assimilate. I will never get the passport. I will never do that. I know what I am. >> I am a rootless cosmo. I love I love I am a rootless cosmopolitan posting. It's it's so >> Oh, I mean I mean I can be, but you know I know where I'm from and I still go home once a year or twice and I still love my country and >> I mean I live to get permanent permanent status in China. >> Uh not really. As long as you have a decent job and you've been living I think it's uh I I don't have permanent

1:13:11 myself but I think it's 10 years. Oh, well 10 years might as well be permanent, right? Like >> Yeah, exactly. In Japan is easier. In Japan, I think it's five. In China, I think it's 10. But again, do you really want permanent? I mean, >> I mean, most people >> I don't think you really want permanent. You want >> Again, I mean, if you're married, you get a marriage visa, right? So, would you want to live there permanently if you're single? I don't think so. >> Yeah. >> Same in Japan. >> What made you want to go to Japan in like to Asia in the first place? >> Yeah. So, I was uh you know, I was a nerdish high school kid back home and uh so yeah, I was a normal like nerdy high school kid and uh you know, I was playing video games all the time. All my friends were out getting hammered and

1:13:57 smoking weed in nightclubs, but my parents what kind of struggle would let me. So, I had to stay home and play video games, right? So, uh I started learning Japanese because of that. I got some, you know, I was really into the uh alliance. I was very aligned and I got some Japanese games that were not translated. I was like, "Yo, [ __ ] this. I'll try to learn." And uh I was good at it. I learned pretty fast. And I was I felt I had superpowers, right, dude? I I I [ __ ] speak Japanese, man. I'm good at this because you know I was on I was on this I was in IRC and I was all this online all these weeps and everybody loved Japan and every everybody was doing like uh cosplays and manga festivals and whatnot but I was the only guy who had to spoke the language so I felt very special and then after

1:14:44 after high school I got the chance to visit and uh you know I was I was a superstar. I was like, "Oh, look at this white kid actually speaks language." And back home, I was this like just weird nerd who doesn't go to doesn't get who doesn't smoke weed. And in Japan, I was like super high status, so I was like, "Fuck this. I'm moving here." >> Oh god. Were your friends all like weed smokers? That's like my nightmare, man. >> I mean, everybody was too. Yeah, but there was I mean again I I I wasn't going to a super good school, but it was a decent normal like upper middle class school back home, but everybody was like that. I mean again my country doesn't have a big intellectual scene in general. I didn't have nerd friends at not in person. So yeah, I mean it was a huge social upgrade just visiting Japan as a as a

1:15:31 weeb and just staying home. So I just thought [ __ ] it. It took a bit of convincing my parents but eventually they relented and uh I went to Japan. I took the the SAT equivalent and I passed it and I got to a good college and that was that. >> Do you Okay, another thing. Do you you don't I I think you don't say what you do for work but is your work like a remote kind of online work or is it more like in person? You're at a company? >> No, no, no. I work remote. Uh I'm a software engineer I might say. >> Yeah. So that gives you a lot more kind of uh viability to like move around randomly, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And again, the thing about Japan and China is that as a consumer is paradise. It's just so good.

1:16:16 Everything is cheap. Everything is >> I think right now we actually have the best exchange ratio versus the yen out of like the last 30 years. >> Japan today is absolutely cheap. When I was living there, it wasund5 yen to a dollar. Now it's 160. with no inflation or very little inflation. So, it's just it's absolutely cheap. Like I I was in Japan last year and you know I would see like chos like American chicanos in Tokyo just just going around and being fancy. I was like what really >> like it's gotten really absurd. But also it's getting dirtier because like more and more Americans are realizing this and also they're figuring out how to travel. So, like every time I've gone back to Tokyo for the last like six

1:17:02 years, it's just been shittier. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> [ __ ] I have to go soon then, man. >> No, dude. I'm I'm It's kind of over. Like, you miss him in the 90s. If you see >> Look at this. Back when I was there, you know, I was there before it was cool >> and there were very few foreigners around >> and I was I would go to 7-Eleven and buy something and the clerk would get nervous because she didn't speak English. I was like, >> I was I was it's fine. I speak Japanese. Oh god. And now all the clerks are like Indians, right? >> You were just like a total gigachad. Like an insane gigachad in China. >> In I mean in relative terms, yeah, I definitely felt like it. But again, living in again Japan is really nice to just hang out and just consume. But if

1:17:49 you have to work there, then it's hell. >> Yes. They have the most cartoonish work culture of all time. >> Exactly. Everything is investment banking, right? Like giga suffering. You have to stay super late. Your social life you work you work an unlimited number of hours. They pay you like 38k and then if you do really well they will give you a raise to 38.05k. >> Exactly. And it just sucks. And >> and also also you have to go out drinking with your co-workers like every day. >> Yep. >> And like they hammered which sound it's like oh dude that's it's not based when you do it every day. It stops being based around numbers. >> It's a lot further than like a fun level. Like, okay, the problem is that like in America, your boss will be like, "Let's go and get totally hammered,

1:18:35 guys." And then if you have like more than two drinks, you're like an alcoholic and not to be trusted. In Japan, it's like it's the opposite. Like, like, yeah, you're not allowed to stop drinking until your boss stops drinking. And also, if you ever say no, like when they invite you out to a thing, you just can't say no. like culturally it's totally not allowed. I have this one I have this friend who lived in Japan and he exploited this to the most ridiculous end where he realized very early on that if a Japanese person is asked if they want to go like hang out or they want to go to dinner or they want to do whatever. It's like they just have to say yes if it's part of their social group. And so he would ask these guys like, "Hey, do you want to go ride motorcycles with me at like 2:00 in the morning?" And they would be like, "I guess." And so they like have to go. And

1:19:22 then they the next time they would be like, "Yo, do you want to come out drinking with us?" And he would be like, "No, I think I'm good." [laughter] And they would just be like, "What?" Like they don't know how to respond to this because like it's tradition that you would care about doing this because you get kicked out of the group, but also they couldn't kick him out of the group because it would be rude. And so it just like broke their entire system. [snorts] >> It's again there's there's a lot to love about Japan, but there's, you know, it it's pretty annoying when you're part of it. And you know, I I I wasn't I I wasn't in college as a normal student, right? I was in a foreign group. I was going to normal class. I was writing my papers in Japanese. I was just there were like 40,000 students in my in my in my college. There were like two white guys. And the other one was American and fat and just, you know, the the

1:20:07 typotypical ugly nerd. >> Oh, you were like the good one. That also made you like a massive relative big. >> Here's the two people who are not from Japan. And it's like >> still I like two years in I was like you know I don't want to live the rest of my life here. Like you know I like I like the experience but I don't like it that much. >> You can say and it makes you sound really like based and cultured or whatever but like I did go insane every time I've been to Japan. And like also I had I think Japan I had the biggest fumble I've ever had in my entire life where like some old guy would come up and he would say uh he's like oh do you like Japanese women? And I said oh no no no thank you. They're fine I guess. But no, not wrote my thing. And like I expected that he was going to be happy that I was saying I'm not coming over here specifically to do like sex tourism

1:20:52 on your women. Like I'm just here for work. And actually he got like insulted. Like he it was clear that I gave him the wrong answer. I was like, "Oh no." Like >> anyway, when back in college, I had, you know, there were only two white guys, but there was a bunch of Koreans and Chinese, like hundreds. And um yeah, the Chinese guy are pretty cool. I found the Chinese guys pretty cool. I find the Chinese girls pretty very cute. And uh started hanging out with with some of them. And again, if you learn Japanese, you have to learn all this kanji, right? 2,00 characters. And China has the same. And I was a linguistics nerd, so I was like, you know, might as well learn Chinese and uh reuse some of the time I put in this and learn another language.

1:21:39 So I started learning Chinese while while in Japan. And again, I was pretty good at it. I learned pretty fast. And I thought, you know, I'm kind of getting bored of Japan. And, you know, I guess next uh I could I could try China. So, I started traveling well on vacation and all that. And, you know, back then, China wasn't as rich and and high-tech as now. It was pretty greedy and, you know, everybody was spitting in the street and and smoking in taxes and everything. But again, I used to smoke cigarettes back then. And coming from Japan where everything is like super regulated and super neat and clean and going to China you could just you know smoke a cigarette in a taxi and throw it away. I was like dude [ __ ] yeah freedom [laughter] and you know everybody's like shirtless

1:22:24 in in sitting in stools in the street and drinking beer and I was like you know and you know everything was super cheap like absurely cheap compared to Japan. I was like you know I could live here man this is this is fun. So, I started enjoying. >> Where do you think uh what do you think becomes the next cheap place after this? >> I mean, I'm getting >> seem to be pretty good at front running the thing. >> I mean, if if there's the next one is is Vietnam. Obviously, Vietnam is the next >> Oh, no. >> Everyone says that. >> I was hoping you were going to say something like marginally more sexy or like livable. [laughter] >> Some Yeah, something like marginally more. >> No, I mean Vietnamese again Vietnamese like racially they're very similar. they're like a portion Chinese but black uh lots of historical um influence and

1:23:12 it it really feels similar at the time back then kind of too much so it's boring in that way and the language is kind of a [ __ ] but uh they use Latin letters so it's much easier to learn and uh if I want to hop again I guess I would move to Vietnam but uh yeah >> so does everything just work in China is it like the place where things just function now >> it does it does now it does now it did it back in the day but When did that change? What was like the tipping point? >> 20 I guess 2017 18. So back then everything was pretty chaotic for a while. Like lots of drugs around, lots of partying. It was very fun in that way. It was pretty chaotic. It was pretty dirty. Like the the air quality sucked. Like you you couldn't see the

1:23:57 >> quality improve. I would have imagined that with the like uh increase in industrialization the air quality would have gotten somewhat shittier. But maybe they just like filtered. >> It was very shitty. Like 20 I think that I think the the worst was 2014 something like that. It was really really bad. You couldn't see the traffic lights. You couldn't know when to cross the street. >> Holy [ __ ] Oh, so it's like it's not even the thing where you're saying like, "Oh, the air quality index was telling me that this was the You're saying like I couldn't see shit." Captain, >> I couldn't see the traffic driving and I can't see the >> You would go up all the like fancy skyscrapers in Shanghai, right? Like the floor 200 to see the the skyline and you couldn't see [ __ ] because of the air. Then Shiin Ping comes in and Shin Ping is this like old school like asset dictator and he bans prostitution. He bans drugs, he bans this, starts jading

1:24:42 people and uh he starts cleaning up the the pollution stuff and now it's like super clean. He's like I wouldn't say Japan levels of cleanness but pretty close. >> Although levels of cleanness is rapidly approaching like SF levels of cleanness. >> Yeah. I mean, Shanghai, you know, >> like Midwest, Midwest Kansas levels of cleanness. Maybe >> the area in the big cities is pretty clean. I guess if you go to the uh, you know, where the the big where all the coal plants are in the in the outskirts, that's still kind of shitty. But in where most people live, it's very clean. The people are much better better behaved. I mean, they still spit on the on the street now and then because the peasants will will never learn, but you know, when the boomers die, they will.

1:25:28 And the new generation is closer to Japan than what they used to be. >> I guess my question that's totally sort of unrelated to any sort of uh geopolitical or interesting cultural commentary is like, >> yeah, >> you're blogger. You've been a blogger. Do you think that the whole blogging thing is going up or down in value right now? because I'm kind of like my thought with Twitter is that it's clearly been somewhat destroyed. Uh and any sort of like there used to be like an interesting thing where you could get away you could meet a lot of interesting people with very low effort on Twitter uh without having to like write the blog post, right? But it appears now that if you want to meet smart people, you actually do just have to long post. >> Uh >> yeah, I yeah, I think there's been a

1:26:13 cycle there. Like I mean I wrote a post on my blog uh a couple years ago saying you know why why I couldn't stop blogging and what happened with the whole scene and uh yeah I mean everybody went to Twitter and you know Twitter is it's low cost dopamine and just much easier to do and much easier to make friends and that's where people moved and you know the again the blog thing was also a generation thing so people my age and we just got old we got married we got busy and you know we just had less time to blog and Jenz never stoped started blogging. So, the whole scene kind of decayed. >> Well, it's also like back in a certain time like Twitter was not so widespread or social media was not so widespread and it was harder to like go on like

1:26:58 you're not it was like a weird thing to go on MySpace or like Facebook or something and write like political thoughts. So, you kind of had to create your own your own blog. Uh or I guess some people I think did it like with friends like you would have a collection of people right and this is like the proto forums right like the PUA forums or you know whatever else um but yeah you you get a lot of blogs because you want to talk about things online and you can't really there wasn't a place for that right I think I think nowadays Substack is eating a lot of this how do you feel substack >> right that's the thing right so back in the day I wasn't WordPress uh wasn't WordPress Modbook was on blogspot. I think the Google one

1:27:43 >> and yeah that kind of decayed one was to Twitter. Now that Twitter is like in shitifying substack seems to be going well and a lot of people going there and the thing about Substack is that you can make money, right? >> Yep. >> Yeah. So I was talking about this with Lucas. There's like a very unique culture of spending money on writing on Substack that kind of doesn't happen anywhere else. >> Yeah. Have [snorts] you seen the really funny meme where uh Bill Aman subscribes to a bunch of Substacks but uses like discount codes for [laughter] him? >> That was really >> literal billionaire who just like Yeah, I'm going to take that. I'm going to waste a minute of my life typing in this discount code. Yeah, I mean I I I have my blog. I I moved out of WordPress when

1:28:28 they started censoring people and you know I I learned to code back in the day. So I I wrote my own blog software and you know I've been doing that but uh there's no way to make money like that right back in the day crypto seemed to be going up. So I thought yeah maybe I just do crypto payments but uh the whole scene seems to be uh not going too well either. So, I've been considering starting a Substack myself. But the thing about Substack is that to make money, you need to go on Stripe. And to go on Stripe, you need to KYC. And you know, it's pretty dope. >> Has no one built like a crypto third party? >> Some like crypto KYC mumbo jumbo, but it like it's always a pain in the ass. >> No, no, I don't mean crypto crypto KYC. I mean just like

1:29:14 >> like a zebo a zkyc protocol that allows you to pay for things. >> No, you you there's there's some subscription u systems with e and I looked into those but it's pretty convoluted >> like the same way that like people can make websites that don't have comment sections have comment sections. Has no one done that for for like payments? >> Not as good as not as easy as Stripe would be. Okay. >> Yeah. So, >> this is a very very complicated and annoying thing. I mean, did this happen? Like, do you remember all the guys who got blown off the internet and they were all like, "Oh, we have to find our own payment processor for this because otherwise and so they all started making like I think the Gab guy tried to make his own payment processor and like you wind up going all the way up the chain

1:29:59 and then you realize that like there's some there's some like private master card like effectively like a DNS list of like blacklisted uh payments processors and it's like you just can't it it's literally like a private banking list. It's it's really bad because at a certain at a certain point you have to make your own everything, right? It's like you're like you're not on Cloudflare, so you have to make your own like DDoS protection. Like you have to do literally everything from scratch. >> Exactly. Again, I don't I mean I'm not um I'm not the daily stormer. I'm not Kiwi Farms. I don't think Cloudfare would go against me. Wait, I >> The way it works is like this, right? So you're like, "Oh, I don't want to KYC to Stripe or whatever, so I'm going to

1:30:44 create my own payment processor." And then it's like, "Hey, who I've created this payment processor to make this worth my while. Does anyone want to use this and I'll collect a small fee?" And then you you start getting people who are the sort of people that cloud player would maybe not want to. >> Yeah. No, I mean you you can't do it with normal money. And the bank the banking system is obviously very political. That's never going to work. You could do it on crypto, but again, it doesn't exist yet. And again, >> you can't do Europe now, which is the other funny thing, like if you try, like this is another thing that a lot of Americans don't realize, but if you try to deposit money into a European banking account from crypto, like there's eventually within a year, like 70% chance they just close your bank account and say like it's over. >> It is annoying. It is annoying.

1:31:29 >> And again, I don't have a huge audience, right? I have like 11K on Twitter. So, if I added like crypto payments on my blog, I don't think I would make a lot of money. I might on Substack because you know you get new people >> and there's other >> also with the crypto payments is like you need an audience that is the type of devoted diehard freak that is willing to learn a new type of money in order to pay you which is automatically like it's like even if you manage to convince a thousand people to pay you $5 a month now doing it this new thing with crypto it's like you can probably expect that only like 4% of those people will convert to doing it by Ethereum or whatever the [ __ ] it is. >> Yes. I've been thinking about making a new subsuck but again if I am to do go on subscre

1:32:21 persona and just be a little more uh >> the thing is it's so hard to do a new persona man. It's just like starting off from zero. You you either truly start out from zero, which is hellish because you're like uh you're like Spider-Man, like looking at the suit >> like, "Oh, I could I could like just put on this suit and immediately." >> I like it. I like >> being a divorced guy who now is like, "I'm just getting back into dating again, bros." And it's like, you don't realize like the meta's changed a lot since you ran your [ __ ] up, right? Like you benefited a lot from the cultural acumen of being the guy that people knew from like the last 20 years. It's like if you go back now without that it's different bros. >> Yeah. >> It's very hard. And then the other thing you can do which is very tempting to do is to seed it with people but then if

1:33:07 you seed it with people you're kind of defeating the whole point >> Yes. >> of of starting off from I mean would you are you do you lean towards like seeding it or do you lean towards like doing it totally? So I I have a friend who started a Substack a year ago I think and I was just checking him and he was you know he asked me to do it together and whatever that and I was just I was just checking you know he has like 60k subscribers I like wow >> 60k >> yeah he's like top 20 in in the rest of my history and you know another guy great guy but you know he's not like super interesting and he has like 60k followers and like holy [ __ ] good for him. Oh, followers. Okay. I thought you meant subscribers. I was like, holy >> subscribers. Subscribers. He has 60k

1:33:53 subscribers. >> Paying subscribers. >> I think so. I don't know. Maybe not. But, you know, it was like top 20 in in the history leaderboard. I was like, "Wow." >> Yeah. Dude, when I when I learned how much like Matt Eiglac and Noah Smith make, it's insane. I want to hear your take about so there's like the abundance Democrats right which are like oh crime is bad and housing is good and rent seeking is bad and what do you what do you make of these people >> is isn't it kind of dead isn't it like three years ago and now mom Danny has completely annihilated him >> well they keep doing the thing where they're coping and they're like it's going to happen man it's going to happen >> I I saw the whole Ezra client like [ __ ] the concept that you know good luck but as As far as I can tell, the

1:34:38 whole thing is, you know, they tried, they lost, and now Mani is studying like actual gay race communism, and it's he's winning, right? >> Yeah. I think the the thing about the abundance lives that is always very weird to me is like the abundance lib is a guy who's like, I just want good policy, bro, but I would, you know, the meme where it's like, but I would never ever ever. Do you know the what I'm talking about? It's like I just want good policy, but I would never ever ask the radical people on my wing of the of the political system to moderate their beliefs in any way or form. It's like, I just want housing. And then mom Donniey's like, sorry man, we need rank control. And it's like they have no rhetorical tool, right? Like they they

1:35:24 can't say anything to mom Donnie. Like they can't ever be like, you're wrong. It's like the whole Gaza thing, right? When Israel has become a right-wing fascist country and all the leftwing Jews in America are like, "Fuck." And now they're trying to sell like, you know, don't be a disemitic, but know there's like too many brown Muslims in America now and like how do you sell that [ __ ] right? >> Well, the the thing is like they refuse to actually ever combat the more progressive the more left-wing arm of the Democratic party. >> They can't. They're the muscle. They're like the I mean they actually people are like you know Antifa is not the left they're like extremists and whatever but you know Antifa is like the SS of the Fed right then they're not they're not the they're not the sender they're not

1:36:09 everyone but you know >> they're who keep the people in line right >> exactly they are required like integral part of the system and when somebody has to give a speech anywhere and you want to stop them you send the Antifa right you send the SS and they need Yes, if when you want to impose like costs, very expensive costs on your opponents, that's what Antifa exists for, right? Antifa poses like, oh, you want to be Charlie Kirk? Okay, maybe someone just randomly kills you. >> Exactly. And uh, you know, they need that to work and >> Ezra Klein and Glacius might want like you to make money from uh from real estate developers and whatever. Anzac client would want to to to to sell like Israel is actually good, but how do you

1:36:54 sell that the Antifa types? I don't think I do. >> You can't. Well, and the and the real problem is that like the Ezra Kleins of the world entirely refuse to be like Antifa is bad. They refuse this whole heart. Like they they can never say Antifa is bad, right? >> They can't. They you can't. It's like killer going against the SA. I mean, you can purge them, right? You can you can have the the knight of the long knives and whatever, but >> I don't even think he can push them, dude. Like they are surprisingly unpowerful against these people. Uh like shockingly literal leverage against them. I've I've never seen them be pushed back on meaningfully. Like they even got Kla Harris.

1:37:40 >> Yeah. I mean, I I don't think they can. And again, even if they did, again, Mandani is is the star of the scene. He's selling stuff that the people actually want and people want the rent control. They don't want abundance. >> Do you think AOC is uh the presidential candidate? >> Uh I don't know. I mean I don't know that much about American politics, but doesn't strike me as that doesn't have the uh the gravitas. >> Yeah. Yeah, I >> I was just saying basically that I think AOC is completely debunked because like millennial quirk chungus humor is like AOC like millennial snark and like it's just that everybody hates it so much like it's pulling at like 4% acceptance and so the idea that they're going to run this like they already ran it with

1:38:26 Harris uh who was an even less abrasive version right like Harris actually you could say what you want about her but she's less offensive to the people who polarize against Democrats than AOC is. I think if I was a if I was like a Republican guy, I would give so much money to Ilhan Omar because I do think actually AOC and Mom Donnie are intelligent and disciplined enough to try to recreate a coalition once they take over from like >> I think Ilhan is just pure evil. I think she's like the absolute >> I don't believe she's pure evil. I just don't think she's that smart. She's like just not that smart. Um, but yeah, I I I think Ilhan Omar is like the most prominent like very knuckleheaded politician on the left. Um, did you see

1:39:13 the videos of people coming up to her when uh like she readjusted her income from like or I think she re readjusted her like disclosed assets from like $30 million down to like $5,000 or something just like absurdly blatantly obvious. And like people would come up to her on camera and say like, "Hey, could you explain like what happened there with the like instant vaporization of like $30 million of wealth and also how you got it in the first place?" Because it's like you I think when you first filed you were disclosing that you were like 50k in debt or something. Uh and she just like she flips out at them and says like you're such an idiot. Like why would you ask me such a stupid question? like she just gets like really really obviously nasty and offended and uh she

1:40:00 did it multiple times. So like I would just love to see her put in more positions of like uh duress really because she just doesn't appear to have it. Uh that and then also the same way the right has a problem where like they don't have any candidates because no one competent right leaning is like >> yeah government is like a good use of my associating it with like getting called a Nazi 8 billion times and whatever else will happen. >> It's not even that. It's just like if you're a competent right-winger like the the logical playout of your ideology is like I just want to be left alone. >> Right. >> Yeah. Like I I talk about this a lot. Like the fantasy of the right-wing guy is like become a lawyer or do investment banking or something for a few years,

1:40:45 make some money and then [ __ ] off to the middle of nowhere with your wife and have five kids, right? And then like the left-wing fantasy is like go [ __ ] with the school board or something, right? Like go get really involved in like minute local politics. exert extreme amounts of control over your like homeowners association. >> I mean it is weird because in a normal country if you have things like like the Republican party right now is like really split between the the Macartage the raw milk uh Q and on like whatever like low class types and the the the Republican establishment, right? like the business types and they hate each other and and you know in a normal

1:41:31 country the the the business type Republicans old school establishment types would join forces with the Ezra Klein abundance Democrats make a new party and probably win right >> they would they would that party would steamroll if ever Klein could bring himself to say like Muslim culture is not good or like >> like if Ezra Klein could bring himself to say and I know that he believes these things in private like I I just know that he does interacted with enough enough of these people. Um but there is zero ways that he could ever do that. And then I think the other thing that the business Republicans have understood or like a significant portion of the business Republicans have actually understood that like Ezra Klene will

1:42:17 watch as like a savage like eats your children like like I I think the business Republicans have actually understood this post pandemic, post BLM, postcoid like I I think this idea has gotten into enough of like the chud uh like the the gentry of America, if you will, which is like the local maximum, right? Like the the guy who has five or six car dealerships. I think that guy has understood like and and that's a big part of like Trump's staying power is like a lot of people don't like Trump for a lot of reasons. >> Um many of which are very fair, but it's like Trump wins and you know that Trump won't go full communism. >> Oh yeah. >> And that those two things are enough to

1:43:04 garner you like when in Germany, you know, they had this the the other hard right, right, the AFD and then the left kind of split between the uh the hardcore commies against the social democrats. What happened was that Merkel allied with the social democrats and they made a big pact and all they think all they did was suppress the the the edges, right? Like the extremes the extreme left, right? That's what that's what a normal country does, right? the old establishment old school like you know uh uh the swamp unite left and right and when the edges are growing they start to pushing them out and you know and they start to pass laws against them and they

1:43:49 censor social media they do that that's what you would expect in America >> I also think AFD is like uniquely very hoaring um I I don't know enough about German politics to say if it's a mistake but like AFD >> is uniquely very host scaring. >> It's host scary because German [ __ ] are very easy to scare. >> That's also true. How have you seen people change in terms of uh the the social dynamics? I think it's weird. I think there was a period two or three years ago >> when everyone in like our sphere of the internet was very very united and like getting along a lot. That's when we met you. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was the fun. >> Fun. That was a good time at the urbed meet. >> It was the fun. Yeah. That was where we

1:44:35 That was where I think everyone that we met so many people. That was like such a culturally intense We met Delicious Tacos. I met you, Lucas. >> Um, dude, I met so many good people that time. >> Tacos were good fun, too. Yeah, >> D is amazing. He is one of the better episodes on on uh on the podcast, actually. >> He always is. He's just always he's one of those like perennial podcast liquidity guys where if you ever need you just need a guaranteed like solid episode invite. It's nothing like that. >> I always sh my friends that if you're not married with kids at 40, you're gay. And then, you know, you see DT and he's he's a great he's super cool, but he's like 50 something. [laughter] >> Dude, he was deploying some insane cope about like, dude, it's totally fine at

1:45:21 50, bro. And like at first I thought there was like some crazy reason why it was fine. And then halfway through I realized like, oh, this is like a lot of people have like the cope that like keeps them alive where like if you don't believe in this thing, you just kill yourself immediately. Like my cope is currently like it is possible to get married. That is my cope. And like Lucas knows he's not allowed to push me too much on that one or just I will end it, man. Like I I will [laughter] like I'll end it, bro. Um my hope is like it is possible to be straight. Like that's like in my bar now. [laughter] It's you're going to misunderstand that like Lucas wants so desperately to think that like not even marriage, but like the pros on like being with women

1:46:07 outweighs the cons in general. Like not even marriage. >> I mean again, if you're living with a woman, you're effectively married. I don't think there's a big difference. >> This might actually be really good for Lucas to start believing. No, I I do I do believe that also, but the problem is what is the one part of my serious relationships that I consistently complain to you about? [laughter] >> Or will you live with them? >> They want too much time. Lucas kind of wants to be left alone a lot, >> right? I mean, some women are fine with that. I'm I mean, >> ones that don't like you, like ones ones that aren't attracted to you are fine with it. So, okay. I I do have a question here is like you know we've talked a little bit about the IQ shredder and how it's basically just

1:46:53 cities are designed to destroy it all. Uh is the solution some like is your solution some sort of like remote work uh like AIdriven software engineering like go go work out of the city remotely and do some sort of weird arbitrage thing or is it just like there is no solution it's over like 10 people will slip through the grates accidentally but that doesn't matter really it's over >> again my solution for the birth rate is again giving privileges to people who have kids but again give them privileges like you know free parking and you know >> is that because that's what's politically viable or is that like what you think is best? Yeah, I mean of course if if I was like god helper of of

1:47:39 the universe I would just go full on on the on the on the women but >> that's that's not going to work right and uh so one thing that I think is more plausible and could actually work is you know give it visual visual privileges to people >> but yeah such that you want the good people who already have kids right instead of having one or two have five while the people who are smoking weed all and don't want any kids, let them not let them stay having no kids, right? Because you want those genes to disappear, right? It's >> the nice the nice thing actually is that all the drugs that the people that we don't want having kids do tend to send your fertility to zero anyway, right? Like it's like weed, like birth control, like all of these this zero zero sperm

1:48:26 count, right? >> I hope I I don't know. I know plenty of and I've done plenty of drugs myself and they're pretty fertile. But um yeah, I mean if the the people who are bragging on Instagram about the child-free lifestyle, dude, do your thing. Keep it that way. >> I'm sure you've done plenty of drugs, but you you just clearly do not have like weed vibes, man. >> There's no other way to put it. Like you are a guy who does weed there. Like there are people who are weed people and there are people who do weed and these are two entirely different things. I do not like weed. That is true. >> Well, yeah. I I mean, you're just like not a drug guy in that way. >> I was always very anti-weed, but uh one guy I met in Lisbon back when I met you guys and one of the smartest guys I

1:49:12 know, he's a he's a huge pthead. He's like smoking weed all the time. >> He's an good software engineer. >> He's an amazing hardware engineer. >> That's [ __ ] I that actually No, now that I'm thinking >> I was like, what you I was like, come on. Like >> there's two types of engineers, man. There's the weed engineers and there's the amphetamine engineers, but it's definitely like they bifurcate along that line. >> Instantly know when you meet them. >> I have to choose. I'm definitely an amphetamine engineer, but he was he's a pod engineer and he's a he's much better. So, uh, I kind of I mean I I I still look down on Ptheads in general, but, uh, you know, it's a bit >> every now and then, you know, it is like they do have those examples they can point to of like the genius giga prodigies where they're like, "Oh, like Steve Jobs smoked weed when he was a

1:49:58 kid." Like Obama Obama smoked weed, I bet. But I'm like Obama. And it's like it is true. Like there are examples of good people that did or good people like successful people that smoked weed. >> Lucas loves Obama. latest on the possible >> on on on a serious thing. Again, I work remote and that makes family life much easier. That is true. >> Legitimately one of those things where like uh some women truly don't under like if you're not going to the office and like commuting, it's just not work in their mind and it's you. It's not only like they will bother you. It's like both like one they will bother you. two, some of them lose respect, but also three, it's like, why are you not just spending time with me instead of on like instead of doing work?

1:50:44 >> Yeah. >> But another thing that happens is, and I know a lot of like really smart girls that do this, too. Like this is like a weird nonIQ dependent understanding axis where you can have like a 145 IQ woman who somehow is unable to rationalize why this disgust happens, but feels it anyway. >> Yeah. I mean, they're still women. >> But the the the big thing here is like uh women have this idea that like when you're in the office, you're 100% productive like 100% of the time. And that's just not the way humans work. >> Like you're But it is the way you want her to think it works. >> Like you want you want her to think it works that way. And thus you should never like >> Yes, you need you need her to maintain that idea in her head. But again, I do

1:51:29 think that in general, men want or most men want to work outside and and the wives want them to and that's a better equilibrium in general. >> Well, the wives don't know that they want them to, but they very much Yeah, but I was going to say like the benefit to doing it, even if your wife does actually not give a [ __ ] is like I like I'm noticing this now, man. And it's like you just have to go to some office-l like space to do work because if you do work from anywhere if if if you're too close to where you sleep, it appears that it is just literally impossible to produce anything. You have to like move yourself 20 meters away somehow. Hopefully like >> I don't know. I mean I know people I know people who like working cafes and all that and they bring the laptop to Starbucks and start working all day. I

1:52:16 and people say it's because they they feel the pressure of you know being watched and and they cannot goof off. I'm not like that at all and just I can work fine at home. I hate being outside and getting distracted by other people. >> Yeah, I really do. Are you like a natural introvert? I assume >> that's just like >> me. Yeah. I mean in general. Yeah. >> So I'm like more extroverted and I've noticed that it is basically like I I am the same way with gyms. Like I cannot have a home gym. Uh, I can theory get a workout done, but it's like I think I just am like psychically powered by all of the other people being around me and I literally lift like 10% more if I go to even a very shitty gym where there's other people versus like if I try to lift in my basement. I made this like really nice home gym and I was like

1:53:02 somehow this is worse than like the shitty [ __ ] like garage gym that I went to in the neighborhood just because there's no other people around and it's like I don't even need to talk to them or whatever. They just need to be there. I think it's the same thing with the office for me. >> I just have I don't have the energy. >> I see that. But again, if again, I think this works even better for women than for men. If you give like big families or or you know, mothers of of many kids and like visible privileges in in society. I think that will make that will go a long way for having people. >> I don't think that's like politically viable, right? Like >> I I I really think the the tax breaks would be huge. Um like multiplicative tax breaks would be really big, but I think that's not I feel like

1:53:47 multiplicative tax breaks are definitely just going to get people into a situation where they create some sort of >> you get reserved parking, you get reserved seats in airplanes, you get, you know, you get seating in the mall that nobody else gets. You get stuff like that, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. I do think the tax break situation will start having like weird arranged marriages where it's like >> cuz you can't you can't also have like >> No, but it's not about marriage. It's about the kids. You need three kids plus. >> Well, I'm saying like you'll have like a weird gay marriage adoption scam in order to like decrease your tax burden, right? Like people will start scamming the system in America because there's so many loophole ways that you have to get married. Again adoption is such an you know it's such a weird thing for me like

1:54:33 and again very Asian in that way that you know there's no adoption in Japan say it's just not a thing >> because when you think about what it is it is kind of like it's very hard to create an adoption program that doesn't also inherently carry some percentage of child trafficking >> it is it it's buying a kid I mean >> someone who's really against it would say like >> it's all child trafficking is against >> it is a kid and yeah it's a very Christian thing and they're very there many wonderful good uh adopted parents But >> I kind of think it's fine if you if you like if you have some kind of fertility issue. If you don't have some kind of fertility issue, >> I think it's a little weird. >> It is. Yeah, it is. >> I've never met someone who doesn't have any sort of fertility issue or whatnot and adopts a bunch of kids and I'm like, "Yeah, this person's super normal."

1:55:19 >> Again, if it were up to me, I would, you know, all this legal privileges you get, they would be limited to biological children. Of course, that's much harder. not not uh not politically viable sign is just like dinging super hard right now. >> Yeah, I know. >> Yeah. Yeah, that is true. The also uh the also really big thing here is I do think that this is another one of those ways in which universal suffrage is just totally ridiculous because the idea that you can have non-parents in society participating in laws does just kind of break the whole thing because now instantly they just support things that are nonviable or like abrasive to reproduction, right? And like if you are a country like if I am god king of of America I'm like okay well there's a few things that we need

1:56:04 in order to remain a country right one is we need income the other is we need kids we also need a military right the military and the income are kind of tied to each other uh okay we need >> we need more kids what do we do to disincentivize people who have no kids and it's like you shouldn't let them vote because they will just support policies that are hostile to having more children and then you have less kids and culturally if they support things that make less people likely to have kids, it's like you have a you have a lower cultural pressure to reproduce in the country. And we know that the number one way if you want to get people to have kids, like every single girl I know in every friend group, once the first couple has kids, all of them start going baby crazy and saying, "I need to have kids now." Right? Like there's just obviously a social pressure phenomenon.

1:56:50 And so if you take that away, they just never feel it. Like nobody ever feels any urgent need to have kids ever. >> Yep. Yep. Yep. I mean I mean again stripping like single people from having from voting is one thing but again we have this huge problem with voting with the boomers right there's too many boomers the boomers always vote and they they always get their way right and we have this like like class struggle in a way this generational struggle between the boomers who are voting themselves all this money right they're getting like what like boat loan uh >> yeah boat loan commun like boomer luxury automated communist. >> Exactly. And and >> let them do everything because they have so much money. And then also when they die, every system in the country is structured such that we just take all of

1:57:35 their money and give it to the government. >> So like they're just the ultimate privilege class. >> And again, of course, young people, I mean, there's one thing. There's the the the single guy at 40 years old who's smoking weed all the time, right? That guy is, you know, should be enslaved and uh and and put to use by the state. But there's a 20-year-old guy who's just not married because you know he's just yet too young for that. And I wouldn't give him a vote honestly. But you know it is true that young people have political needs that should be addressed and there is some opposition between them and you know people with families and and old people and I do think a a more rational political system would

1:58:20 um account for that. Right? There's this whole Marxist class struggle thing and you know that was pretty real or used to be. I promise it is but there's also generational struggle in many ways right and uh nobody is >> right now that's the that's the big thing but the problem is >> the problem is it's obviously like clearly the the people you want to support are like the young people. The problem is young people just don't vote. They do not vote. Maybe it's like you get a 10% tax break per kid, but only if you show up to vote or something and you can only have it while they're dependent. Ah, the classic buying vote strategy. >> You could make the case. You could make the case like, you know, if in 50 years I

1:59:05 >> votes, but for my people, >> you can make the case that, you know, if if you know, civilization goes to hell completely, we actually, you know, everything goes to [ __ ] The birth rate is never fixed. Like public finances collapse, everything goes to [ __ ] If a historian is writing like 500 years later, he will he'll say that the whole thing went to hell because old people bought him themselves too much money. Young people couldn't buy a house, right? They couldn't get married. They couldn't have kids. The boomers brought immigrants to supply labor. That made the situation even worse for young people and everything went to hell and civilization disappeared. You got to make that case >> that it's all because of that one thing. If you had to blame one thing for everything that's bad in today's society, it it would be that. It would be boomer.

1:59:50 >> Which one? >> It would be old people like having too much political club. >> The problem is that the boomers are like the oldest people that I can remember. So, >> right. >> It's like [snorts] they once >> we talked about this last episode where it's like >> you you mog people in political online arguments by being like, "No, no, no. things went wrong 50 years before you think they went wrong. Like you just you just didn't read the thing, man. Yeah. Like we're all like we're all out here discussing how we could fix this within like a democratic system. And then Curt Curtis Jarvin is like way over here saying like it was all wrong. We need a monarchy, right? Like we should never have been voting on and it's like it's obviously more true, but we're like we're trying to cope, right? Like every

2:00:35 political discussion falls on this gradient of like this is a thing that I think would workish kind of but like is possible versus like this would fix everything instantly but you it will only work in like a fantasy land of Narnia, right? And so it's like it's almost mental masturbation to even discuss this other thing over here. >> So what do you think about urban nowadays? Because we we met at urb Lisbon so we have to we have to talk about it I guess. Well, I'm I'm still on orbit. I still have my group and it's still going strong and the ecosystem isn't as big as it used to be, but you know, the same people are still I would say 60% of >> How many people would you say are on nowadays? >> On orbit I mean it was it was always

2:01:21 people building orbit who were were just on it, right? >> It was always a very small group of people, but all these people count for like a hundred normal people. Yes, >> something like that. I I would say that the amount of developers working on orbit is about 60% of the peak. So again declining but not that bad. And the thing is that AI we've managed to get AI to understand the orbit. >> So everyone now everyone now is super excited because now you can just tell AI to to make you stuff >> and so development has been accelerating a bit. So when you say you've managed to get AI to accelerate Urbbit, is this like we've made our own custom harness that can like prompt inject enough context about what is that it works or is it like they've actually trained on

2:02:08 >> enough enough what is the programming like it's like hoon is it like you've trained on enough hon and and GPT became good enough that we're decent at hoon and then people made new harnesses to make it go even better, right? Better context, all that. And now it's pretty good, >> huh? >> So, development has been accelerating. There's a lot of new stuff coming out and um you know, there were a bunch of really big uh like uh bottlenecks of speed and performance and I think these are getting resolved this year. >> So, do you think that's the problem? I I mostly think that the the bong is orbit is more of a marketing problem than a the product problem.

2:02:53 >> I think no. I think the product was too bad that even with the best marketing, there was just a bottleneck there and uh it just couldn't work. I think if we solve that and we're in the process of doing that that then you can actually put money on marketing and just put some effort and then we have to we have we would have actually something of value to sell. Of course, the problem is that nobody's in I mean the whole idea of the personal server and all that kind of lost a lot of uh a lot of uh interest when Elon Musk came in and you know and the vibe shift and people stopped getting censored all the time because the big sell orbit was that everybody was getting banned all the time on on social media. So you needed your own server to to talk to your friends, right? >> Yeah. that Elon Mus comes in and you

2:03:38 know gives freedom to the people and so the pressure wasn't there anymore but of course Twitter isn't as is is going to shake for other reasons and uh the vibe shift isn't going to last forever. >> So Trump is Trump is old and cranky and more focused on on making Israel great again and uh and odds are that in two or three years the social media starts getting censored again. So I think it's good that over >> kind of happening again now actually like they've been soft reamping censorship of very like tactical accounts in preparation. >> Yeah, it is extremely surgical, but it is clearly happening right now. >> Yeah, like they are they are actually just picking like the smartest and most effective rhetorical outlets on the right wing and they're just like

2:04:23 surgically excising them. It's it's to be very fair to them, it's like some level of like triggers the libtards enough um and like is smart enough and does not have enough of a platform that they can like meaningfully fight. Like it's a it's a little bit more complicated than that. But yeah, on the whole it's it's basically that. >> And you know, even if they even if they don't get banned, people are getting dogs all the time and you know, it's still kind of dicey. So again, I wouldn't bet a lot of money in it, but you know, odds are that in a couple years time, uh, Orbit is much better and much more usable and there's actually a competing case that you actually need something. >> I think the big the big bull case for orbit now could be if like you know like

2:05:08 the entire internet is sort of deeply grasping for another cultural center of things. >> Yeah. >> Because it like Twitter died. So, anything that can provide that I think inherently becomes very interesting because there's a lot of uh it's just like wasted effort to post on Twitter now, right? Like I'm I'm now straight up just posting like wholesome chongus like soy jack content on this website because there's no point in writing anything and thinking about it seriously and then posting it to Twitter because the end result is uh like either I have to viralify like sloppy it so that it actually gets eyes right but then then you just get everyone commenting with some sort of like aggressive misunderstanding of the thing where uh

2:05:55 now you just have a bunch of angry retards in your replies or you have to actually make it like good in which case it literally gets like 72 likes and then the >> I think it's also just Twitter's whole thing always used to be that you had the in-group boosting right and so the in-group boosting created a situation where you were fine even even though there was like normal like sports Twitter or whatever the [ __ ] uh it was okay, because you could just be in your own little corner and you could you could be fine, right? Um, now that's not the case. Like the algorithm just pushes the slop on you so so so incredibly aggressively that it

2:06:41 becomes very difficult to like just do your own thing in the corner. I my Twitter is like super low effort and just I'm mostly drunk when I when I when I when I post I'm posting much less than I used to and uh >> yeah I mean >> I think we all are like I think if all of us look at our like usage graphs it's like I'll sometimes have a day where I'll just like post like crazy but for the most part it's like I actually have to like force myself to even want to post on the website. Spandrel you're in China. The last thing, do you have any alpha on China that our viewers can deploy to make themselves money? >> I wish, man. Um, that's the thing, right? Like spending money in China is so good. Everything's so cheap. Everything >> but it's impossible to make money,

2:07:27 right? >> It's impossible to make money and that that's why the Chinese but that's why the Chinese immigrate, right? Like life is worse in every way when you leave China, but it's much easier to make money. Even even with stocks, like I can buy a Chinese stock, right? >> They don't go up. They don't go up. They will the company will make more revenue and they will sell more cars and like the margins will but they will never make money. They never return money to >> [ __ ] in Hong Kong right like if you buy stuff in Hong Kong it's okayish they will go up like I made money with B and stuff but it's nothing like America. >> Yeah it's it's very strange they should start making uh poly markets for all these companies cuz like you can't actually make money on the BYD stock. You should just be able to like punt like >> so funny. should be able to like bet on uh like use poly market to make bets on BYD revenue because I know the revenue

2:08:12 will go up. >> The stock price somehow will just continue in a 10-year range infinitely, right? >> China doesn't China like uh suppresses the stock market on import. >> Yeah. Yeah. They don't let asset prices go up. No, we're super familiar with that. There's good reason for that. But it is true that, you know, the western world, especially America, has this amazing gambling culture with all the finest [ __ ] and there's a lot of money to be sucked there if you know how to. So, China should really try to suck money from all the American DJ and gamblers. >> I think it's actually good for for China to do this. Probably >> it is. It's why would it not be good? Like ah the country should capital >> harder for capital formation and like you could argue that there's like >> like you could argue that like um shoot

2:08:59 what was the Alibaba's guy's name? >> I'm Jack M. >> Yeah, Jack. Like you could argue like oh he might have been Elon and he might have started like two other companies. >> [ __ ] >> But like that never happened. >> He was No. No. He was trying to make a [ __ ] DJ bank and he got [ __ ] >> Yeah. Exactly. So you you could make the argu that argument, right? I I think like there is an argument to be made. >> They want the money to go to to go to to R&D to to better engineering and to better product so they can [ __ ] >> you just want the company to eat all the surplus. It's the industrial policy, right? It's like don't make profit, just keep selling more and then like at some point 100 years from now maybe >> get market share, get market share, market share, market share, market share, market share, market share, out compete everybody, dump resources, like push down the price of the yen. But yeah, prediction market betting on BYD

2:09:45 would be great because it's like I know BYD's cars sold will go up. I know their revenue will go up, >> but they will not ever return that to shareholders. >> I mean, crypto was like 60% Chinese, 40% Chinese. A lot of crypto like the most den >> they were moving money out of China because they were fleeing China. >> And [snorts] and what are these people doing now? like all these Dian people making all this super elaborate like uh crypto stuff, what are they doing now? Cuz yeah, I mean AI is cool, but nobody's making that. >> I think a lot of I think a lot of crypto is in the US. I think like it's just a thing where like you're in China and so you see it. Um I do think there was a lot of like DJ Chinese people that don't see like a financial path forward with a normal job to like a life that they want.

2:10:30 >> Yeah. Um, but I do think a lot of the money was like American money sometimes or like the money for the interesting companies sometimes was American. >> Um, >> especially at the very beginning >> and I think AI just sucked all of SF all of the like >> it sucked all of it in that direction which is really weird because China is super competitive in AI. China was actually not that competitive. Like you think about like Chinese crypto projects. It was like Tron and that was it. >> Yep. Um, >> no. No, but No, but I mean I mean Binance is Chinese. True. Binance is Chinese. >> Chinese. And a lot of these >> Yeah. I mean, they didn't have the whole blockchain, but they had a lot of these, you know, staking schemes and all the

2:11:15 [ __ ] I guess all these people doing like all this um like scam compounds in Cambodia and all the [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> They pivoted to to to rob to robot scams for boomers. That's where the money is. >> I can keep going. I assume it's super late for you. >> Um, >> yeah, it's fine. Yeah, >> it was it was great to have you. Lucas, do you want to cut the recording? Uh, do not leave the browser because it uploads a local audio which makes it easier to edit cuz like >> before if I God everyone, it's been it was great. >> It was great to have you, Spandre. Thank you to our listeners for slogging it through another >> I guess this isn't the longest one, so never mind. We're not thanking you that much. Oh yeah. Thank you to our sponsors, Poly Market, Zcash, Passage Press, and Citizen X. Uh, good night.

2:12:01 Godspeed, guys.