The Libertarian Addiction to Losing and New Hampshire Nationalism: W/ Jeremy Kauffman

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YouTube automatic captions, grouped into readable passages. Names and wording may contain transcription errors; the recording is the source of truth.

00:00 I think this is the way it works though, dude. No one's no one's excited to like go waste, you know, a weekend of theirs voting or god forbid like canvasing or knocking on like knocking on doors. It's not something ever, you know, like for better or worse, policy is what matters, right? But like policy is downstream of everything else, right? You don't you don't win with good policy. You win by loudly promoting the effects of your good policy. You win by like owning the the libs on Twitter.com. Like it's obvious that like the marginal the marginal policy wonk is not what delivered like a 2016 or 2024 win. what delivered like a marginal 2024 2016 win is like a a person on twitter.com who like posted like I mean this is like a

00:46 funny thing to say but I really wholeheartedly believe this that like uh own like Ben Shapiro owning the libs compilation number 54 like is more important than like the modal like the the marginal guy at like a think tank right >> yeah I'm I'm inclined to agree I'm not sure how much of it happens on X specifically At this point, I do think X is like hopefully still influential and sort of >> I think X is like upstream of the stuff that actually matters. Like you you meet really big in Instagram influencers and Tik Tok influencers and all of them are on Twitter. Some of them do post on Twitter, but a lot of them don't. Like we met recently these super famous models that are like some of the most famous like like these European guys. They're not we're not flexing women at

01:32 you. They're they're male. >> Yeah, they're men by the way. Yeah, >> I I I was promised before I came on this show that a woman has never been on this podcast, so I just want to make sure. >> Yes, that's >> Have we had we never had a woman on? Actually, true. Yeah, [laughter] >> we keep inviting them and they don't they don't want to No, I'm joking. Uh we we obviously haven't invited any of them on. >> I have a few relatives who fairly regularly hit me up every time a new episode comes out and say like, I noticed there was no women on this one. Also, [laughter] >> welcome back. >> Welcome to the episode of the pause. possibly deniable experience with my beautiful, greatl looking, very heterosexual co-host, Lucas, >> sponsored by >> and my beautiful 21-year-old co-host. [laughter] >> Dude, every time Lucas like alleges my

02:18 age, it goes down like a few last time, too. I could I was thinking about saying 19 this time, but that's getting >> Yeah, very soon he's going to have to start being more careful about this cuz he's going to start getting really close to implying that I'm a minor. [laughter] This is my 16-year-old co-host. >> This is the reason that he's not on camera. By the way, I know a lot of I've gotten a lot of questions about why Salea is not on camera and uh you know, we'll be able to show him in another few years, but right now it's just not looking [laughter] >> brought to you by Zcash, Poly Market, Citizen X, and Passage Press are wonderful sponsors. We have an amazing guest for you guys today. Jeremy Calfman of Twitter notoriety, New Hampshire

03:03 Libertarian Party provocator, and as we'll get into, former rugger of Lucas at age 15. [laughter] No, we we forgive we forgive we forgive any any cryptocurrency entrepreneurship related exploits. >> You for a great great episode. We're the biggest non-scammers out there like in especially in crypto like we delivered. We had applications. >> I should I should say we we should we should cut this because now we're on air and we we were having a little back conversation talk and the first thing I said to Jeremy he was saying you guys are really unprofessional. You were late to the recording. It's like fair play. I was indeed late actually. Uh >> but then I said but you on the other

03:49 hand you rugged the living [ __ ] out of me on this libery coin 10 years ago. Well, I like to establish rapport with any podcast host by just being really insulting to them. It's like a great way uh it's like a it's >> how you show respect in their culture. >> Yeah. Yeah. How to how to make friends and influence people or whatever. And yeah, it's just just be really mean to them. But uh the the federal government rugged library. I mean, we were [laughter] this is the Okay, man. I listen. I'm willing to hear you out. I'm willing to hear you out. >> [laughter] >> You don't get it, bro. It wasn't me. It was the feds, man. They made Obama. It was Obama. [laughter] >> Wait, hold on. HOLD UP. THIS IS not a madeup story. We had We were at like 50

04:35 million active users with Odyssey. We had a a big thing going. We got blown up by the SEC. The That's why the whole >> I think this is actually kind of true. Yeah. >> Yeah. Uh, and and we were never uh trying to tell people they were gonna get rich with library coin or you know, whatever. >> This is the classic. This is like the classic one. Like we just sold the coin, man. I never told you you're going to make money with it, which is it's like super true. No, no, hold on. Hold on. It is super true, but it is just like the most uncompelling argument ever. >> I I don't know, you know, what authority uh what what source of record I could appeal to here. You know, you can ask your favorite the council of >> I support this argument completely scam.

05:21 [laughter] >> I I wholeheartedly support this argument that like if you are ever in quote unquote the casino in any way possible like that's on you, man. You know what I mean? Like I I very much wholeheartedly support this argument. >> I got out with no money. I spent I spent almost 10 years of my life working on this. >> Yeah. This is what always happens is like you also don't make any money and then people hate you for it as well and it's like >> people who hate you for it actually lost less money on it than you did. Like I knew the point >> I was a true believer. Okay. Like I was uh so >> that's what I was going to say is the generation the generation of crypto projects that you were part of none of those founders made any money. Like all of those people were 100% true

06:06 believers. They were all like, "Yeah, like my tokens will vest in 18 years because that's like when you know, like I'm fine locking my [ __ ] up for 18 years because I know that this is going to keep going." And like all of them wound up getting uh they got like association rugged where it's like some of their friends or some people around them who managed to like get a hold of a lot of supply benefited more financially than the founders did. >> Yes. It's like the the adviser that sniped 2% allocation for like introducing you to a VC made more money on this. >> Yeah. Look, yeah, like similar stuff uh happened here. >> He knows exactly. There's someone he's thinking about, right? [laughter] >> The library the library blockchain is still live. It's it's legally in the

06:51 clear. It's still actually a good idea. So maybe one of your audience uh members wants to pick it up and run with it because uh like the the core idea I'm I'm actually shocked that there's still not a better like business here. You guys are like technical guys. You probably people who use like Bit Torrent and stuff like this and like the uh the idea that you can have a blockchain that maps to content hashes which is like the entire idea like there's a little bit more to it than that but the entire idea is very simple. use a public blockchain, map metadata to content hashes like in Bitcoin. Like everyone's still using like Pirate Bay or you're on like a private tracker, but that's of course not public. Uh there's still a a huge business here. Uh and it's like shocking

07:36 to me that someone hasn't built it yet. >> I It's just dude, memory is super expensive, man. Um I I think I mean I'm sure you would know more about this than I would, but I feel like the coordination costs for all the memory are incredibly incredibly expensive. You know, I don't know that it requires memory. There is a tricky problem of distribution. You know, any public blockchain requires some token to write to like it can't be free and I do think that is, you know, one of the hurdles. Cryp crypto hasn't solved this uh Are we doing crypto, man? I haven't done like a crypto podcast in years, honestly. Like, I've kind of >> I know. I was like I do. We really audience even know about this [ __ ] anymore. We just like uh

08:21 >> we talk a lot less about crypto to be honest. So don't expect that we will continue to talk about crypto. But um it was just funny like we were we were looking you up and I was like, "No, dude. It's super cool. He like does all this libertarian stuff and whatnot and then Lucas looks you up and he's like, "Holy [ __ ] this guy rugged me when I was 16. [laughter] I you know >> it's okay. I I forgive you. Listen, >> everyone everyone rugged me in a long enough time scale, right? [laughter] >> Yeah. Of of all the rugs that have happened, like a financial rug is actually really not that bad, man. >> Yeah. >> Um >> but I will pull up the very first thing that I do whenever we have a guest on

09:06 now is I ask Grock, this is their profile, what things should we talk about with this guy? And it really like I don't know if I've ever gotten such an awesome response as I got for you Jeremy. Uh the number one is the Libertarian Party meltdown and disaffiliation parenthesis extremely timely. Then it says the biggest current hook. After his speech at the Libertarian National Convention, where he called attendees loser apes and freaks and pushed hard against the National Party, the Libertarian National Committee voted 15 to2 to disavil disaffiliate from this particular party. Uh, and then it has some good angles to approach this from, but it's like I assume you probably have better angles

09:52 than whatever GR can provide me with this. >> Well, it's funny because like the all the Libertarian Party of New Hampshire stuff, this is just like a side project. Like I spend like a couple of hours a week on like if that on the Libertarian Party and like literally 5% of my time was enough to throw the entire National Libertarian Party into like a complete tumultuous situ which wasn't my intent. I wish they would just leave us alone. Uh you know uh and I wish they would uh you know follow the evidence that what we're doing in New Hampshire is working. I I do I have to like I guess I should like explain all this. I can't believe like you know if if crypto is not >> No, we just want to say look we want you to explain all of it go into the lore but like wholeheartedly our our official podcast position could not be any closer to the idea that like

10:38 people who vote for the Libertarian party are huge losers like the biggest >> like these people like and I don't mean I don't mean losers in the sense of like these people like uh like they have uncool interests. I mean like quite literally these people like are addicted to losing, >> right? The only way that you can actually bring yourself to cast that ballot is if you have like a deep personal belief that you must do everything in your power to personally lose, right? >> You cannot support winning >> 100%. I don't I don't I the last election I voted libertarian for president in was I think 2008. uh you know when I was young enough to think that that could make sense. >> So it's your fault that we had Obama.

11:23 It's personally >> me personally >> personally on you. >> That's true. Uh yeah, I'm the reason we have Obamacare and uh you know so that's all me. >> Every time I hear that I just see that meme of like a libertarian guy like really smuggly walking over to the ballot and it's like 599 for like the red, 600 for the blue, and like one for the yellow. Yeah. >> Well, and it's it's the social dynamics. >> Tell us the back story. Tell us the back. So, you So, firstly, you you end up in New Hampshire. You know, this is like publicly known or whatever, but like I said, we can cut anything that you you don't want in, but you end up in New Hampshire. It's so like tell us a little bit about you. You know, how you end up doing library, which is I

12:09 understand how it's pronounced. um you know tell us tell us a little bit about it how and why you end up doing it and how you end up in New Hampshire which I understand is through the free state project. >> That's right. Yeah. There substantially separate stories but they you know touch a little bit. I I've considered myself a libertarian for a very long time, you know, sort of once I was exposed to those ideas and and you know, particularly for me, uh it's more about the ideas of free markets, voluntary association, you know, hayekian knowledge. You know, I think these ideas are really good and important. Uh they resonate with me very strongly. I am someone who appreciates

12:54 you know sort of that you know great man theory of history this idea that there are you know small numbers of people who have outsiz impact. I think this is true in politics and business and culture you know in this kind of uh of thing and the more I these ideas like naturally resonated with me as soon as I saw them as soon as I learned about them you they just felt they felt true to me. I also realized that, you [clears throat] know, libertarianism is a very unpopular like I, you know, I see try to see the world as is and libertarianism is a very unpopular ideology. And so I mostly didn't do politics. I was like a little bit of an internet libertarian. I would read things, but you know, I mostly played that stuff close to my chest. I was living in Philadelphia and I when Bitcoin came out and I was

13:40 running another startup at the time and but when Bitcoin came out it resonated with me. I was thinking about it and you I just sort of thought about it from a first principles sort of sense of like well what is this? Uh, it's a really crappy database with interesting properties, right? It's a really terrible database technology if you're into tech. It's like, this is the worst database I've ever used, but it has this interesting property that no one can remove records from it. And you give up a lot of things to get that property, a lot of things you would normally want in a database technology, but you get this property where, you know, it's censorship resistant. And I was thinking about how else you could use this kind of technology. And as someone who was into this sort of Bit Torrent type

14:25 community, I was like, "Oh, this would be like a natural fit. You could use a public blockchain, write metadata, point at decentralized records, point at a hash in a in a decentralized network, and that this would be like a really like logical system. I um as an entrepreneur, you know, when you're a startup guy, you follow traction." And we got all this traction as a YouTube alternative. And so we ended up growing the whole thing to tens of millions of monthly active users as like YouTube, but you can say that uh you know the COVID vaccine kills you. And this is like how we got a lot of our a lot of our you know public uh you know uh traction for better or worse. And there was other stuff. I want to be clear. It wasn't like all a lot of what YouTube blocked was like completely reasonable stuff. YouTube is still

15:10 terrible towards >> I was gonna say yeah back in the day I remember this was during the period where YouTube was just like oh you have a channel where you mentioned firearms in any capacity demonetized banned like we've mass IP blanket banned you and all of your parents. Uh so not good. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean the censorship regime in the late in the late 2010s and early 2020s was is really ridiculous. It it's gotten better. I think it's still bad. Um, you know, even X, as much as I love it, I post there a lot, is still like not where I would like a site to be in terms of how they >> Do you think Do you think there's any hope really for like uh, you know, like censorship seems like it's one of those things that it's always going to be present in the net in some capacity, at least in like the clear net, any sort of like uh, thing that normal people can

15:55 use, right? Uh, and it just appears that the line everyone's towing is like, can we make this can we make this subtle enough that people don't realize it's there? And then once it starts getting super egregious, like people start freaking out. But like it appears that just over time the base level of censorship people are acclimating to is increasing. >> Yeah, I think that's right. I mean I think theoretically to me you could solve it or with the right technology or the right design and that was the that was the intent of what we were doing. You know I was trying to bring censorship resistance to the normies. like that was the actual goal of what I was uh you know trying uh you know trying to do. I moved to New Hampshire as part of the free state project which is the uh or I

16:41 like to call it the free state movement. Uh it's this movement to have libertarians. I would say right-wing libertarians at this point like the a lot of the free stator don't get along with the broader libertarian movement, you know, uh because the libertarian like well there's a lot of layers to this. You the word libertarian has kind of gotten lost. It's gotten defined by the Libertarian party, which is full of people who are substantially to the left uh of and substantially more [ __ ] than the average libertarian. And I I think this is why a lot of people with libertarian attitudes don't use the word libertarian anymore. You know, I talk to, you know, elected Republicans and so on all the time. They're like, "Oh, they'll like whisper to you like like

17:26 it's like a secret that they can't say a lot. Like I'm kind of a libertarian." And and I think the Libertarian Party deserves a lot of blame for that. >> No, they 100% of the blame. Like if I ask my parents right now, if I were to call them up and say like, "What do you think of the Libertarian Party?" They're going to say like, "Aren't those the guys that like they go up naked on stage and talk about how you should smoke weed and like we should get rid of the age of consent?" And then it's like that is what they do. Like that's actually just what they do. >> Yeah. So it's it's a very messed up dynamic. The free state movement though is succeeding as a libertarian movement. We have more than 100 people elected to the state house. Actually, before I came on this podcast, I was at a brunch with, you know, multiple elected people, leaders of institutions. We had um Orin Macintosh. >> Notice how he left them to come on the

18:11 podcast. Really shows you what's what's important in American politics. That's right. Okay. That's right. >> The podcast class were in Supreme. >> It's never been a better time to be a podcast. >> This is where the real the real power lies right here. >> Yes. True. >> On this joke. Uh, so I moved to New Hampshire as part of this free state movement. I'm I live here with my wife, my four kids. I think it's a tremendous place to live for, you know, people with these inclinations. It's a great place to raise a family. But, uh, you know, I realized, you know, when I was here, and I've been the executive director of the Free State Project. I've been on the board of the Free State Project. Uh, you know, I realized that the Libertarian Party does have this outsized impact on the word libertarian. And so if we're fighting for the word libertarian, then we want to have the Libertarian party,

18:58 you know, be aligned with us. Now, everyone here gets elected as a Republican. All of the free stator who get elected, they get elected as Republicans. And so, a bunch of free stator partially with my encouragement, you know, kind of came and took over the Libertarian Party of New Hampshire back in 2021. And it's been a five-year, this is not even the first time they've tried to disaffiliate us. This is actually the second time that they've [clears throat] to uh you know disability. >> You know the libertarian party is entire it's like not everywhere. There are some states that are doing well but it's predominantly left libertarians. It is predominantly the like hey we should be naked around kids and it's like these kinds of like freak people because they don't have anywhere else to go. None of the other parties will take them. And so

19:44 in you know instead of libertarianism being which again these ideas of voluntary interaction, free markets, competition, entrepreneurship, uh you know there's a lot of uh uh you recognizing um uh you know sort of the downsides of of of this of this massive government and so on. There's a lot of libertarian ideas that are likable, but the ideas are now defined by this libertarian party thing. Uh, you know, which is full of people that like, you know, most no one wants to listen to, no one wants to consider what they have to say. And so much so that even when they see someone doing it well, right? Like when I took over the Libertarian Party of New Hampshire Twitter account, it had, you know, 4,000 followers, it now has, you know, 110,000 followers or something

20:30 like this. and it's the most followed state. We get the most attention and they're just bitter and angry about it. You know, this is a this is the these are people are such losers that when they see someone succeed, they've got to, you know, cut their head off. And of course, we see this in all kinds of domains, not just in politics. >> So, you've successfully run up the Libertarian Party of New Hampshire's Twitter account. Do you have any secret strategy? >> Poster occupied government, man. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Totally poster occupied government. just like [laughter] >> I was >> how did you become like such a powerful force from libertarian politics and it's just like I ran up the Twitter account, bro. [laughter] >> Well, it's like I it wasn't even something I was spending substantial time on, you know, like I I I do admit I

21:16 I spend more time on X than I probably should, but you know, I just like hop over to the account and I just like would say, you know, something there wasn't there wasn't this grand plan. Like I was doing this while I at one point I was running the Libertarian Party of New Hampshire X account while working two essentially two full-time jobs and I was just like just hopping on here to you know throw a post and like nonetheless like in 10 minutes a day [laughter] I was able to you know grow the account uh you know much more than all these people who had been in the Libertarian party forever. And so a lot of this is it is like bitterness like these people are they really are you know you you cited the speech I gave earlier it's like they're such spiritual losers that I don't it's like impossible to do anything with these people like

22:01 they're so full of bitterness. You know I'm someone I resent the government because I feel like it holds back people from doing things from building more things from achieving things. You know, like one of the most offensive things the Trump administration has done to me, and I'm generally a Trump defender, is that it, you know, it took away Fable for [laughter] like a week because, hey, this is a this is a really powerful tool. This is why I hate the government. You know, I could have a voluntary relationship with this company and we could be making things and I can't do it. You this is why I don't like the government. You know, but for a lot of these people, they're like, the government is in the way of me living in the dirt and I would like to drag everyone down in the dirt with me and the thing that's in the way is the government. And you you so you can hate the government from like all kinds of different sides. >> It's like there's there's 100 million

22:47 different paths you can get to this one uh central stance of libertarianism. And it turns out that like a lot of them are actually just like kind of communism in a weird way. >> Yes. >> Yeah. I agree with you. I agree with you. I mean I agree with you completely. And uh you know I've realized that you know in ter and and that's that's the weird part about what's happening in New Hampshire is like when you're just a critic you could agree right we that we don't like the government in New Hampshire we're actually like ruling I'm not saying we control the entire state but we pass laws every single year dozens of laws are passed you know by our guys >> and that's a lot harder you know like now you've got to make decisions you've got to face the messy aspects of reality where your perfect polic policy solution

23:32 isn't possible. And now it's like, well, do we do A, B, and C? And all A, B, and C are all imperfect, right? None of them are what you want, but this is these are the only options that are realistic that can actually be achieved. And so, it's been interesting to see, you know, the movement has I think it's maturing. I think it's the most mature libertarian movement in the world because, you know, we're actually wielding the sword. But >> yeah, like literally I was gonna say you're the only libertarian movement in the entire history of the universe that's ever had meaningful amounts of like power which leads to the fact that you now actually do just have to like reckon with the decisions whereas everything else is like it's like Marxism, right? Where it's this weird abstract political thing that you can just do endless theory crafting about because it it doesn't matter. Like it's not happening and nobody will ever get

24:18 it to happen. >> That Yeah, that's right. And a lot of these people are now haters of the free state movement because people are are making these, you know, imperfect decisions. You know, I have um I I I like to come up with the most uh you know, sort of like offensive framing of of any possible idea. Uh uh it's it's how you persuade people. And uh so I have a I call it uh you know, secret sociopath political theory, which is like everyone is actually a sociopath. Like you can model political perspectives much better if you just imagine that everyone is is a sociopath in the sense and what I mean by this is basically no one holds a set of political prescriptions by which they will have less social influence less you

25:03 know they will be lower in social standing and so on on the other side of their proposed political transformation right like no one does this everyone's everyone set of politics even the the distributionist liberal like they see themselves as like the elite like handing out, you know, the stuff like it would be good for their, you know, social standing. >> It's like it's like the nobody votes out of their own interest theory, right? Like everybody is always a rational actor voting in their own interests, but sometimes their interests might like they just might be crafting them wrong in their head. >> That That's right. Although I think also the the one like addendum I'd have that is that these interests are not economic. They're related to social standing. And so like uh you know my social standing may improve by forcing everyone of a certain wealth class to

25:48 give money or you know whatever. So it's not necessarily economic interest. It's like this sort of social standing kind of interest. And so yeah I think this is I you know I think this is uh completely >> uh is essentially completely true >> and uh or like rock directionally true and uh you know but this is one of these things that like everyone you very few people want to acknowledge. you know, everyone wants to pretend that that's it's, you know, altruism or whatever, like I'm trying to do. >> This is Yeah, this is the weirdest thing when people are saying like, I'm voting like altruistically. Like, I'm voting for the other guys, bro, and you're just like this. Like, if this were true, you would be the biggest [ __ ] in the universe. But I don't believe that it's true just because it's like I I know you as a person and the type of person you are appears to be very like self-motivated usually. So,

26:35 [laughter] >> that's right. And so I think, you know, I'm of the opinion that like libertarianism actually isn't good for, you know, for a lot of people. I think it is good in the sense that it unleashes innovation. You know, I do think, and again, this is one of the reasons I I very much still consider myself one, is I do think human innovation, ingenuity, the types of things that that humans invent and create under free markets or under capitalism or or just generally under low constraints is remarkable stuff. But also, the truth is, every single time this happens, everyone hates it. And we're going we're going through this with AI right now, you know, where it's like to me as someone with this mentality, I'm like, "Oh, this stuff is amazing. It's so exciting. But of

27:20 course, I can use it and I you know I I can I can wield it and I can get it and but that you know 80% of people are I don't know what the polling data is but it's like you know 80 >> I I think polls worse than crypto ever has at this point. It's like shockingly >> which is really hard like very difficult to achieve like and it's it's because everyone knows about it too like with crypto it's like you can't achieve 100% of society hating crypto because only like 50% of society will ever even be possible to care about crypto whereas >> but you guys are you guys are excite I don't you guys are excited about it right it's exciting >> I yeah I personally love but I've also like like I'm out in the Midwest for the next like month or two and I can tell you that when I'm talking to people around here. It's like you just don't

28:06 mention this [ __ ] man. Like, [laughter] >> well, right. And so my I want to live in a society dominated by people with this perspective, right? Who aren't scared of the, you know, future, who want to embrace it, want to embrace these things. And this is just a really weird, and I don't mean that in the Henrik sense, uh, capital W weird, but it's just a weird perspective. Uh, you know, and I'm like, well, you know, I get that at this point. I accept it. I'm not trying to persuade anyone. You know, I just want a place where these kinds of values can dominate. That seems achievable to me in New Hampshire. It has to happen somewhere. You know, I do think I had like there's enough people even if we're minorities, you know, the gays did win eventually. So,

28:53 you know, it is possible >> for uh you know, minorities uh to, you know, to eventually get their way. So, uh, that's the, uh, you know, that's the goal. >> If you think about it, if you think about it, libertarians are like the gays of politics. [laughter] >> I've, yeah, is a great take. >> I've t that's one of my also unpopular takes that libertarians are like [laughter] like the gays of of politics. >> So, you you end up in New Hampshire. Can you can you tell us a little bit about like I know I'm making you run through the motion, explain the whole thing, but I do think the the Free State movement is like a very interesting movement actually. Um can you give us like a quick rundown on that? >> Sure. Yeah. It was founded as a uh sort of an assurance contract where the idea

29:38 was it was recognizing that libertarians have lost for a long time. And it was founded under the theory that if you had you know around five to 5% of the population as you know really hardcore dedicated people that minorities you know can win. Uh this wasn't cited in the original essay but like Nim Tab has this idea about like uh what is it the uh the most intolerant wins. And so it's like if you're really strong if your opinions are really strong as a minority >> you can often get your way. And uh so around 20,000 people uh you know basically agreed to this idea and the idea was we'll all go to the same place.

30:23 Uh we'll all move to the same place and attempt to be uh politically effective. Um I believe around 10,000 people have moved here but it's really really difficult to count. It actually wouldn't surprise me if the number is much higher than that. Uh and I I will say also having been here I've recognized that some people are worth hundreds or thousands of other people you know and so uh you know but we have have gotten some incredibly quality you know people here like I could name elected politicians these names won't mean anything probably but like people like Jason Osborne and and Travis Corkran and Keith Ammon and like these guys are really reshaping the state in a positive direction and they

31:08 you know they came here as part of the free state movement and so that's the idea is rather than try to win in America at large concentrate in you know in one place and you know I'm not like wholly an American doomer but I think we have a lot of problems you know like the democracy has no breaks uh you know even even when you know Trump was supposed to be this like rare moment to get a correction. You know, we've gotten some like small corrections, but I, you know, I don't I don't think America is going to be the type of place that I would like it to be anytime soon. Probably not in my lifetime. Possibly not ever. And, you know, the way that things have happened in the world is a small number

31:53 of talented people, you know, kind of get it and they build something new. And I think I think that's what we're in the midst of doing here, you know, in in New Hampshire. And it's it's like I don't know how to describe the political climate well to people who aren't here because in most places like libertarians are like a laughingstock and here it's like we're an actual enemy. Like you'll see these signs like the will put out these signs like New Hampshire is not your free state project. Like they they they are the enemy. Like free sters are the enemy more so than the Republicans. They the free stator are the enemy here in New Hampshire. >> And that's because >> people hate winners, man. >> Yeah. So, u you know, I think uh again like

32:40 the kinds of things that I value in the world are increasingly rare. I don't know where else to get them. I don't want to I don't know if I should name him on this, you know, show, but there's a influential, you know, couple uh you know, sort of from the San Francisco ecosystem. they moved out here uh you know just around a year ago and it was because there is nowhere else for them to go. It's like, yeah, San Francisco might be a better place for work still, but you can't raise your kids there, you know, whereas here, you know, like my kids have peer groups that are all, you know, reflecting, you know, our values. >> Your values. Yeah. Your values and like who you want them to grow up around and >> That's right. Which which a lot of the research says is like the most important,

33:25 >> you know, thing. >> By far the most important thing, dude. >> Yeah. And so, >> cannot be overstated. Yeah. You can't buy this stuff at a private school because, you know, a lot of at what private, you know, all the private schools are still, you know, reflecting sort of [ __ ] values. You find this stuff everywhere. And so to actually find a culture that you know celebrates success that encourages kids to push themselves that you know encourages people to be their best that you know that doesn't encourage you know shame around talent that you know trust children to challenge themselves and take risks and and and so on. You know uh I I never you know I'm not going to claim I've been everywhere in the world but like I never seen anything else like it uh you know like where we have here in in New Hampshire. That's one of the reasons that I'm optimistic. Like the in in in

34:11 November, New Hampshire is probably going to elect at least five and maybe as many as 10 Gen Z like men under 25 who are like hyperbased right-wing libertarian guys and they're they're going to be in the state house. And it's like it's it's not just one, it's five or 10. It's it's it's it's really incredible. Yeah. [snorts] And in normal politics, you're like not allowed to do anything before you're like 50. >> That's right. Yeah. And and so, you know, again, here I think I just think things are a lot different. I think it's still kind of early. Like I'm I don't want to like overstate that we've won or anything,

34:56 but the moment it feels like like I've been in I've been in startups where you hit in that phase where you're like, "Oh, like we're doing this, like we're succeeding, you know, and when it comes to this kind of project, it's a little bit slower. It doesn't move quite as fast as a startup does, but we're we're we're in that cycle where we've got that product market fit. We're doing something that's working that no one else is doing and it feels like something special is is happening here and it's definitely worth checking out uh you know for anyone who who sort of shares these uh dispositions. >> Yeah, within within the cult of like the the free state movement and going and hijacking the Libertarian Party obviously top number one thing you can do posting things on twitter.com number two thing you can do moving to New Hampshire. What is like what is like

35:42 further down? Like what is you know the gateway drug >> in inside of the state or outside of the state? By the way, I assume that was cult complimentary. Uh >> yes, >> I was I was I think it's just cult like descriptive at this point. Like we're kind of uh we're kind of post implications about the >> we're Yeah, we're very post I mean the whole podcast is called plausibly deniable which is like the number one way to like nuke your plausible deniability is like call like reference the the act of plausible deniability. >> I'm lying. like this this is called the liar. >> I told several lies already. So yeah, obviously nothing on those. >> I think we definitely think posting is good. You know, we we take a lot of it it seems like you expend a lot of political energy explaining to like some well-meaning people, I'm sure. You

36:27 know, in the same way Trump says like and some good people, I'm sure, but like mostly people who are addicted to like losing in a principled way, right? you spend a lot of energy explaining to people like no actually tweeting, you know, things on twitter.com that might not be super nice is how you win elections and that's how you affect change, right? >> Yeah. So, I would say I'm uh personally like not I help people win elections a little bit like I donate money and I door knock sometimes and and so on. I see my role as like more of this external communicator trying to convince some of those well-intentioned losers [laughter] that there's like another and better way to do things like

37:12 you don't have to lose, you know? It's it's tough because >> I think this is the way it works though, dude. No one's no one's excited to like go waste, you know, a weekend of theirs voting or god forbid like canvasing or knocking on like knocking on doors. It's not something ever, you know, like for better or worse, policy is what matters, right? But like policy is downstream of everything else, right? You don't you don't win with good policy. You win by loudly promoting the effects of your good policy. You win by like owning the the libs on twitter.com. Like it's obvious that like the marginal the marginal policy wonk is not what delivered like a 2016 or 2024 win. what delivered like a marginal 2024 2016 win

37:58 is like a a person on twitter.com who like posted like I mean this is like a funny thing to say but I really wholeheartedly believe this that like uh own like Ben Shapiro owning the libs compilation number 54 like is more important than like the modal like the the marginal guy at like a think tank right >> yeah I'm I'm inclined to agree I'm not sure how much of it happens on X specifically At this point, I do think X is like hopefully still influential and sort of >> I think X is like upstream of the stuff that actually matters. Like you meet really big in Instagram influencers and Tik Tok influencers and all of them are on Twitter. Some of them do post on Twitter, but a lot of them don't. Like we met recently these super famous models that are like some of the most

38:43 famous like like these European guys. >> They're by the way. We're not we're not flexing women at you. They're they're male. >> Yeah, they're men by the way. Thank you. I I I was promised before I came on this show that a woman has never been on this podcast. So, I just want to make sure. >> Yes, that's we had we've never had a woman on. Actually, true. Yeah. [laughter] >> We keep inviting them and they don't they don't want to go. No, I'm joking. Uh we we obviously haven't invited any of them on. >> I have a few relatives who fairly regularly hit me up every time a new episode comes out and say like, "I noticed there was no women on this one." >> [laughter] >> Like these people like these guys are like total like you know they really care about looking good and they're posting Instagram stories all the time. They go clubbing

39:30 and you know these guys are like like one of these guys like one of the top five like male models in all of Europe effectively. And >> you monitor locally I assume. I like it's a like I'm I'm gonna run defense for SA. SA you don't you don't have to do your cope. I'll cope for you. Uh the thing is SA obviously straightest man on X. He knew nothing about any of this weird homodeling stuff. But as a result of us hanging out with them, everyone came up with and was oh my god is that? And then they would say his name and we were like who the [ __ ] are these people? So SA had to start SA had to start researching. He eventually was like, "Dude, we just hung out with like the Omega famous like male models of all time." >> Uh, and now

40:16 hangs out with like Charlie D'Amelio totally by accident. And then it's like, "Holy [ __ ] like I need to start like like no, no, she's really big on TikTok. Like this person's really big." >> And so I've watched him gradually like price up when he tells this story. like he started off and he was like, "We hung out with >> German like oh these German models and now I'm like the third biggest male model in all of Europe." >> Um but the point is to say these people know who Curtis Yarin is and like these people know who these people are which is is is really crazy. And so I think Twitter is upstream in the way that like 4chan historically was upstream, right? Um, and so yeah, I think if you if you really want a mass audience and I think people whether you're a part of the poster class or you're a politician or

41:02 just generally you should one thing you should do is you should start a brand new Tik Tok account. Like you should clear your cookies, open up a private browser [clears throat] and go to Tik Tok or go to reals and like scroll through for a bit to get an idea of like what normal people actually consume. And it is vastly different than the stuff that's on Twitter. And also, you know, you self- select yourself into a certain group of people on Twitter pretty hard. But I I do think Twitter is still very very much upstream. But sorry, I I was saying that like I think the poster class is very important politically. It's like a shock truce, right? And I think get people motivated. I actually experimented with using Tik Tok and I was doing I and I was just like doing the equivalent of like your chip posting and but on Tik Tok and I got like I got a million views on I

41:48 think two different videos in the span of like six weeks and then they banned me and I was [laughter] I don't want to I don't want to go back. I should probably try it again. like you know I do yeah it's similar to my ex posting it's like >> sort of like >> so we've been told apparently reals is like right leaning and Tik Tok is left leftaning which is kind of interesting >> I think Zuck has gone totally hands off sometimes I see stuff or like my normie friends will send me stuff on reals and it's like dude there is crazy [ __ ] like people are posting stuff there under their real like name and face that I would not post on Twitter like people are posting crazy [ __ ] on there >> well do you know who you're talking to. >> No, no, dude. Dude, dude, people are posting crazy [ __ ] You get like the

42:35 translated like there's a little like AI cat speaking and it's like translated, you know, I won't say what German leader of the 20th century, but like there's like translated speeches that like a little cat is saying >> and these things are getting like >> 10 million likes. >> Yeah. And like everyone who's liking this, it's under their real name and like any of their friends or family can go and like could see that they've liked this. Like it's crazy. >> This was something that I've talked about a lot is like back in the day there were these secret Facebook groups where people would go and they would basically have the same content as like uh like various 4chan [ __ ] posting subcultures, but everyone's posting with their real name and face for all of this stuff. And that just turns that's like

43:21 an instant intensity to 11 because now like all of this stuff spills out and it's not just like oh I posted this you post under your real name so maybe this is like less salient to you because you do post >> I'm just I'm just saying that whenever you do anything with your real name it becomes like uh >> it it's just so much more of an actual part of your life now because there's some guy that recognizes you and they're like or maybe they go and they comment on your Facebook your your birthday post that your mom made and they say something and now your mom is interacting with this weird subculture that you found on the internet while you're in college, right? And it's like your whole life is now a cartoon. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't Yeah. I don't know. I mean, look, I get it. I understand. I I've been independent, you

44:08 know, for a long time in my businesses and so on, and that's given me, I think, a certain freedom to post, you know, under my real name. I also have a psychology that's like maybe I'm like not necessarily like looking to get piled on, but I just like like it's a fake story. Uh but I loved the story of like Galileo, you know, when I was a kid. Like I was always attracted to like what's true and also you can't say it, you know, like that. I've always like that's like I'm like a moth to a flame for that kind of stuff and you know and and you know I post accordingly. Did you see how he preempted the the Curtis Jarvin attack there? He was like, I know this isn't true, but it's still epic and based. We've Lucas and I have

44:53 been talking a lot about like the Curtis Jarvin like I have the high ground total ownage. And basically what what this rhetorical strategy consists of is like someone goes like wow Obama Obamacare was really bad for the country, man. Like 2008 a lot of bad things happened after that. And then like Curtis Jarvin will appear on be like well really the entire American Revolution was a communist project in which the seeds of like >> the seeds of Obama's presidency were were introduced to America in 1776 and it's like dude holy [ __ ] who's like well ever since humans first used rocks and stones as tool we were destined to recreate technocomunism or [laughter] >> I guess he says technoc capitalism. Someone's gonna I'm making a joke. I'm making a joke, guys. But, uh, yeah, you

45:40 just can always win the argument by saying like, "No, bro. Actually, it was over 1,000 years before you even thought it was over." Right? And you just keep going back until eventually. And it's like, it's all true, right? Like, every action led to the next action. So, like, [snorts] >> yeah. >> Yeah. I I mean, I think Yeah. Go ahead. >> Sorry. What What is that gateway? I I want to get us back because I do think it would be epic if like all the people I know on the internet moved to New Hampshire uh and were like ruled over by like you and your friends. >> We need to move somewhere, right? But I I have to say the problem and I assume you run into this a lot too, but uh like you know the whole thing with libertarianism is freedom of association, right? But a big problem is that the majority of people under any sort of true actual freedom of

46:26 association, they would just not be associated with by anyone. So these people inherently have to oppose the system that says like you can pick who you associate with. Uh and I I assume actually this is like a large degree of all of your social problems, right? Like all of the libertarian party's social issues come back to this thing of like how do we like how do we legally allow ourselves to just not talk to these people? [laughter] >> Well, yeah. Look, I well, one of the reasons I think the New Hampshire strategy makes sense is, you know, because of its sort of constrained size, you know, it's it is a lot less threatening to the status quo. You know, like libertarianism, if you tried to make America libertarian, that's an inherently

47:12 threatening project to an incredible amount of people, all of the programs that they're a part of, you know, their jobs, their welfare, whatever. If you say, "Well, we want to go be this way over here away from you." You know, it's like threatening to the 700,000 New Hampshire residents who disagree with us and that's it. And they can be, you know, rounded up and put on a car and you know, >> that was I I was really worried. You said round it up and I was like, dude, I can't believe he's going for it. Put on a car. That's fine. Whatever. >> I meant a Tesla. I meant they can get in their Tesla. I've been the point is there's it's it's it's easy it's an easy thing to escape like we're not going to we're not going to seize that they can

47:57 sell their house and we've helped you know housing in New Hampshire is quite expensive you know it's becoming like a a you know gated community you know so it's like they're going to get a lot of money to you know >> so you're saying you're doing it again you're saying buy now he didn't say it it's like with the cryptocoin he didn't say buy now it's going up but I'm hearing it's going Okay. All right. [laughter] You know what? Lucas might be too smart for me and I might need to find a better job. Go on. [laughter] >> Yeah, you do want your propagandist to not be like too intelligent, right? [laughter] >> Well, no, because I'm trying I'm trying to recruit intelligent people. So, you can't you know, I can't be too stupid. You got to find the the right setting. >> That is true. It's like you can be you can be a complete bumbling idiot as a

48:42 technical manager, but you do still have to know some technicals or they will not respect you and they will dunk all over you for your entire life. >> Yeah. So, you know, I don't know the it's I I think the world is like in a very interesting place. I think there's this odd um we had I'm a big Robin Hansen fan and uh the entity I'm working on currently is called the Free State Party. We have >> a YouTube channel. We don't post too much on X. Actually, I'm still kind of figuring out the voice and tone for uh for the entity, but it's this private club called the Free State Party. We put on some public events. >> You're actually I I want to How do you figure out the voice and tone for an account like that? Like cuz I I know when I've done this, when I've worked with companies, it's basically just like post a little here and there and then kind of like feel it's some very it's

49:28 some very like artistic dubious process that I could not like if I had to write a document about this to give to someone, it's not going to be good. like it's not gonna pass off any meaningful signal to them. >> Yeah. No, I agree completely. It's it's very intuitive. You know, Lucas, you talk a lot about like dating and and and stuff and it's like it's it's vibes you're picking up. I you know, I I actually think like dating, sales, and posting all have there's sort of [laughter] >> those are the three things that I should do less of. Definitely. >> I'm very good at them. Uh but there's this like horizontality to them where it's like yeah it's it's tough to write down the rules you know and and and what I find appealing about all of them is you just kind of you do

50:13 things and you intuit it and you learn from the responses and and to actually write it all down would be you know would be very would be quite the challenge you know and and I you have these kind like I have this trained intuitive system that I've built over time you know by paying attention you know and but but yeah even on X. I mean, X is the closest thing posting wise, you know, to doing like improv comedy, you know, where you're just kind of like or speaking in public where you're just like you can just kind of feel this sense and like ride a wave. >> Yeah. >> You know, a little bit. >> Yeah. The way that I the way that I always think about it is like um this is especially true with dating advice and we the reason that like I think everything gets distilled down to dating advice is because it is just the most

50:58 relatable human experience that you can express psychological concepts through. So that just is the go-to whenever you need to make an analogy for literally anything. But, uh, everything is like you can write out a series of, you know, like some guy is going on a date with some girl and it's his first date ever and he asks you for advice and you write out like four things, right? And if someone has gone on 8 million dates and they have like a lot of experience with like specific types of women or whatever, that might make tons of sense to this person. But that guy who's only been on one date, uh, these rules make no sense to him because he's now like it's like you don't actually even know where like the gradient of like the potentiality of any decision can lie, right? Someone says, "Oh, like if someone says be aggressive but not too aggressive," and it's like, "What does

51:44 that what does that mean?" Right? You can get anything from like a guy deciding that he shouldn't make eye contact to a guy like walking up to her and saying like, "I need to make love with you right now." as the response to that one piece of advice. >> That's right. That's how I met my wife actually. But yeah, uh you know, >> the eye contact one or the [laughter] unspecial. >> Look, there's a variety of tactics, you know. So, uh [laughter] No, I No, I'm sorry. I derailed the cover. I I Yeah. No, I I I agree with you. like I mean well this is all kinds of knowledge. I mean like okay I I have young you know boys and one of the things you know we do is we practice you know sports and and various athletic activities and this isn't the same as

52:31 the stuff that we were talking about but it's like you can't you can't like I there's no I can't give you a set of verbal instructions to tell you like how to swing a baseball bat well like you have to practice you have to develop a feel for it once you have that feel >> then we can maybe start to use some vocabulary on like how you can adjust in terms of you turn your hips, you know, quicker or, you know, keep your hands more inside or whatever. But saying giving you tips before you swung a baseball bat, like there's just not that much. >> It's just extremely confusing. And I I think this is something actually really good that like software development did over the last maybe 10 years is uh people basically don't believe that you can learn stuff by reading anymore. And neurotics will still read anyway, but they're they're reading compulsively.

53:16 Like if you go to the person who's like they're reading all of the dating takes trying to figure out how to unfuck their marriage or whatever, uh, and you ask them like honestly, do you really think that you're going to read enough about this and that's going to be the thing that does it? They'll usually just tell you no, like I'm doing this because I'm anxious and like worried, right? But I I think the only way to fix it is to actually do the thing. And uh it it comes back, you can just do things. It's like, no, you have to do things. Like, if you don't do things, you literally will never learn anything ever, and you will just read other people's secondhand experiences, which confuse you forever, I think. [snorts] >> Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And again, because posting and dating are the same thing. Like, that's exactly how I've, you know, posted. And I kind of just

54:02 figured it out by doing it. And I was never scared to, you know, take shots. And sometimes I posted things that people screenshot and throw back in my face. I'm like, well, that might have not have been the best one, but you know, but I wouldn't have I wouldn't have gotten there, you know, without, you know, without taking some shots, you know. >> But you also, so this is something that I've noticed with you, like uh everybody who has the mentality of, you know, I'm just going to do the thing and then if it goes badly and I I'm like, I'm wrong and this was a dumb thing to say. Like you can always just go back later and say like, yeah, that was wrong. I I you guys convinced me it was a stupid argument. I'm dumb for it. Uh and then it's like, okay, like it's done. There's a lot of people who think like, "No, I need to have the ultimate like 100% complete developed thesis on everything that I say ever because someone might

54:47 screenshot it and then call me an idiot later." And it prevents them from ever uh believing that they can retract or change an opinion or view, which leads to them sort of developing like an existential anxiety or neuroticism. I found uh you don't have this. You very clearly don't have this. No, I'm I mean I'm but I've been I've also I mean I've constitutionally been this way like my whole life, you know, and so there is something like maybe a little bit different. I don't know how learned it was versus how natural it was, you know. I and I'm a little bit detached from, you know, Gen Z or some of the younger, you know, like I know them as like colleagues or friends or whatever, but like it's not my world. And you know, that's what people say on the internet is like that's why they're so timid and

55:32 they're, you know, afraid of this kind of thing. But I don't know, I think I think you have to get through it. And also, I think, you know, there's kind of a market for it. Like I think I think some of my success has come from being you know I I don't I don't really think that like brave is the right word for like typing words into a box. But like I you know not not being afraid uh you know is the the more the more that something is lacking in supply the more that if you provide you know a little bit of it the more >> demand there's going to be for it. And >> it obviously just builds trust too. Like this is this is just a known and this is something that grifters abuse a lot of the time too. So, it's not necessarily like great overall, but it's just true that if there's a viewpoint that you know somebody is genuinely going to take

56:18 heat for and you see them espousing it regularly and defending it as they get attacked by people, then you're like, well, I kind of trust that they believe it more because this now has meaningful downside to their life, right? Like, if I were to go out and say there's all the examples that I'm thinking of is like I would just instantly get banned from YouTube for saying them. But yeah, I mean, you can imagine if I were to go out and say some like age of consent thing and then just keep hammering this like this is my one issue, people might be like, well, like he he's kind of a scumbag, but he's probably not griing me. Like he probably does genuinely believe that this is important. [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, also as someone who despite, you know, like I'm I don't know if I'm hard I'm like this weird combination of like hardworking

57:03 and lazy. And it's a lot easier to just tell the truth all like it's less work. Like I don't I don't have to like remember this like complex web of perspectives and like you know past narratives. It's just like, oh yeah, just like just saying what's on my mind and just like telling, you know, my my personal my truth, you know, like just just putting that stuff out there. It's it's actually like once you get used to it, it's really easy. Like you don't have to think about it at all. You just like literally just say what's on your mind. Like you're not sitting there like calculating, you know, how this party is going to take it or this faction or, you know, whatever. And and again and and I as you said like I found that that like that people are like at least a decent

57:48 number of people are like attracted to it. They find it compelling or or you know worthwhile. And so you know I'm I'm very rare. I'm not going to say I've never entered into that mode you know in high leverage moments or whatever where you're like trying to think about oh you know this person and what would they but like for the most part I'm just like kind of just yeah this is >> what's on my mind. This is why I think this and this is why you know and it's worked well for me. So, >> I think this is actually one of the secret benefits to uh why being doxed makes people see you as more trustworthy. Like obviously there's some like face humans like eyes, they like looking into them, all that jazz. But I do think that something really nice that I noticed like when I doxed was when I was anonymous, I had all of these different stories that I had to tell to try and obiscate like where I grew up or

58:34 like where I went for this phase of my life or where I worked. And so I was always just like misdirecting with a bunch of stuff to make sure that people couldn't figure out who I was. That obviously all makes you seem super untrustworthy. And then when you just are like, "Okay, well I'm doxed, so who [ __ ] cares? I'm just going to say the thing." Uh, now you just have a consistent story again, right? And when you're anonymous, like if you maintain actual anonymity, you cannot have that consistent story. Like that's it's part of being anonymous. who must be regularly telling misdirection lies to everyone, which like horrible for your credibility. >> Yeah, I I I think that makes complete sense. And yeah, I've always seen, you know, I've I followed you for a while on X and that's always been my impression of you is you're, you know, shooting it

59:19 pretty straight and you're you're certainly similar to me, like willing to just say things. I don't know how popular this is going to be, but this is what I think is true or this is what I and yeah, I agree. It's attract like it's and uh you know it's it's attractive. It's it's it's compelling. >> So I I'm kind of getting more chilled on uh New Hampshire here and this Free State thing. That's an amazing mug. That's pretty >> How do you dip your toes? Right. If I'm like a if I'm like an enterprise person >> um you know I'm a big fan of um I like the um kitten beloved post where it's like in every successful relationship your wife will have a more extreme and more [ __ ] version of your own politics and uh

1:00:07 >> which is I I I would like to think that my relationship is very successful because my I was my wife thought bought this and she thought it was so funny that uh >> well I was wondering like what even is going on on that mug? Cuz at first I was like, "Oh, it's >> like every possible um you I don't know where it came from. It just showed up in my house like most things." Uh I I see the credit card bill, but I don't know. I don't know. [laughter] >> I see. I got I got the AMX notification and then this thing showed up. Man, [laughter] not a great day. >> Oh, no. I don't you know I don't think this was expensive but you know look uh actually my wife I think on the perspective of uh my wife's awesome I think very few men are like have to tell their wives that they can spend more money uh and I actually often have to

1:00:53 tell my wife that's like it's okay you know you can you can spend more money but at the same time she still doesn't know what numbers are uh and so it's like a weird dual you know kind of thing where she somehow like doesn't want to spend money but also doesn't really understand like what money is >> like I understand that this is a resource But my understanding of the scarcity and the total volume of it is yet to be determined. So I'm like sometimes I'll press the button and then other times [snorts] not really. >> Yeah. Okay. All right. So I I feel like I maybe like lost the thread of conversation, but this is why this is a talking point. This will this is novel content for your podcast cuz people don't talk about this enough. >> We're not doing some like agenda thing where it's like, oh, we're going to talk about this topic for 10 minutes and then >> Okay. But I feel rude when like someone asked me a question and I like never

1:01:38 answered it and just talked about whatever was on my mind. But >> Oh, he didn't even notice. [laughter] >> Yeah, dude. It's totally fine. >> I've probably met smart women and my wife's a smart woman who are like if you gave them like a math test like they could do like fine, but they have no natural inclination to like ever do math. like to the point that they're like resistant. Like even though they're capable of like doing math, they just don't they just won't do math. They just don't want to do it, >> you know? Whereas me, like I'm doing math all the time, you know, like I like I'm very inclined to just like do math and think about numbers and and and so it's like it's not even a matter of ability, it's a matter of like inclination uh as like a personality, you know, kind of thing. No, I I was talking recently

1:02:25 about uh there was a girl that I was with who pulled out her phone and started showing me a bunch of videos of her ex uh lifting weights and uh he was using those bumper plates that are like mega huge, right? So they're not like most most plates are metal so they're very dense and these bumper plates are made of rubber so they're just much thicker. So it looked like this guy was lifting these enormous barbells filled with weight but it was actually like fairly average weights. Like it was it wasn't bad. I mean, he was stronger. He was like a dedicated lifter strong, right? Uh, but I'm sitting there watching this and uh, this girl is like very smart, good at like she works in a field where like it's like she knows numbers when she applies them, but clearly she's being totally befuddled by the rubber plates here. Uh, and there's

1:03:10 no there's no great way to tell her that, right? Because you sound like you're coping if you say it. If you say like, well actually like the density of the material that he's using on the end of his barbell is uh much lower than the traditionally and this is not actually that much weight. Like you just sound like a loser. But uh >> psychologically like you can't help yourself. There's no way that you look at that video without adding up the numbers. Like that's your >> Yeah. >> psychological inclination. >> But of course like I did do the thing like I did do the thing where I coped to her and I explained that it's actually but like she just kind of like looked at me. She was not impressed by my coping, right? Like she didn't like it. >> I will say, dude, women women do all these dating things which is just like you obviously can't do like imagine you're on a date with a girl and you're

1:03:55 like, "So this is how beautiful my ex's hair was. Like look at how long it was." Like >> it would be totally absurd. Like even if you take the exact same analog, I pull out my phone. I start showing her my ex's weightlifting videos. >> I Well, no wait no not weightlifting. Not weightlifting. But but uh yeah. No, I actually think that would have been the best possible response. Uh like like it's like she's like sharing you're like, "Oh my god, that reminds me of like these." And you just like show her like photos of hot girls that of you with hot girls like, "Oh yeah, that reminds me of this." You know, and um [laughter] I think I think that would be the like killer move there. Yeah, >> it that does. Yeah, that does totally show that like I am clearly still trapped in the the Matrix here, right?

1:04:40 Like Jeremy would escape deeply >> pulling out [snorts] traps and like what you're allowed to do. [laughter] >> Well, no, you're agreeing. You're like, "Oh, that's really cool." Like, "Oh, let me show you [laughter] where you don't >> because they they can't actually say anything in response." Like, that's that's the funny thing about your response here is like, had you pulled out the phone and done this within the socially allowable laws, right? She can't like she has to then first imply that you're doing this to make her jealous before she can get mad at you and she can't do that first step because it's mean. So it is it is just a total victory. >> Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So we should start a dating podcast obviously. Uh that's the next that's the next step. >> Well in Okay. I I was going to say back

1:05:25 to the New Hampshire thing. I didn't expect I did not >> sell New Hampshire. I'm so bad at my [snorts] >> No, no. I'm saying I'm saying you've horrible drug dealer, man. I keep asking like what's the gateway drug and I just can't I like don't get an answer like >> well no I mean I came into this podcast and I was like okay so he's going to tell me that libertarians are bad and he's commandered their party as a vehicle for the absolute savior of uh wherever he lives right the salvation of his home but now I'm learning that the home is New Hampshire and I'm also learning that it's like okay you've you're farther along in this project than I guess actually uh and you have now created a New Hampshire How long has uh >> a little uh a little over 20 years but I would say that it really picked up steam

1:06:10 around 10 years ago and then co was also a huge like injection where a lot of people came here in in 2020 2021 >> that's what I was wonder did so did you use co as sort of like a marketing uh pivot for the fact that you can >> I think it was remote work right probably >> yeah well also just in general like you know people here. Well, I will say I think initially a decent number of people took it seriously. Although we have like a monthly there's like a monthly meetup. It's one of the longest running ones and it never stopped. I think in March like March and April of 2020 was like peak uh probably COVID concern here and there were still

1:06:55 probably a quarter the meetup was still like a quarter or a third full. And then by June um probably like 60 to 70% of people were like well we're done with this like we're you know we're just gonna go back to living our lives and that was you know mostly you know mostly my life like you know look I the idea that a virus could be like I don't I don't rule that out of bounds you know and so I'm happy to be a little bit precautious if there's you so I I took it seriously for probably like six or eight weeks you know and as more data came out I was like I'm relatively healthy guy. I don't seem to fit the risk profile and I'm just going to be, you know, I'm just not going to be very, you know, concerned about this anymore. And, you know, went back to living my life as normally as I could. And it was

1:07:41 great that there were a lot of people here who, you know, again, shared that perspective. And so, yeah, my kids were able to be relatively normal. I was able to be uh relatively normal. I think for people who are New Hampshire curious, it's like you don't have to be persuaded. You don't have to be convinced you're going to move here. Come for a visit. Uh, you know, come for a vacation. Uh, I'm happy to help, you know, people, you know, plan a trip, uh, or whatever. There's a guy, Dennis Pratt, here who runs an inn called the Independence Inn. It's a great landing spot. You can stay there. Uh, >> are all are all the things in New Hampshire that are related to this Free State project, are they all like you say Independence in and my uh I imagine I had a debit card as a kid that just had

1:08:27 like a bald eagle and like a flowing flag in the background and the Independence in sort of evokes that same imagery. Does all of the stuff associated with the Free State Project do that? Like is it all named like pro America independence freedom like bald eagles flying everywhere stuff? There's a decent amount of that. So, I'm not, you know, I'm not gonna say I'm not gonna say no. It's not everything. Like, there's a uh uh one of the I don't know if they're like an official school, but like one of the places that people like to send their kids is this place called Latitude Learning. And that's not, you know, that's not Free State branded. >> It's not. But it's like it's in the same way it at least does evoke the image of like uh the globe with what's the projection that they like you you at

1:09:12 least have some sort of like a geometric measurement of the world which is like a Fouian triumph of man over his environment in some way right like maybe we haven't terraformed the earth yet but we put lines on it or replicas of it at least. >> That's right. you look something I think you know I' I've spent time in sort of elite tech circles you know in San Francisco or New York City and I met a lot of you know you you'll meet a lot of people like it's like you walk into these places it's like oh everyone in this room is is three standard deviations you know in intelligence or higher you know it's like a bunch of very talented people I think the free state movement in New Hampshire has selected for people who are like three standard deviations in like agency or

1:09:57 independence, you know, I think on intelligence that we have our 3SD people, we have our 1 SD people, you know, but every there's there's a there's there there's so much like I think we selected for like independency and agency as much or more so than intelligence. And so you'll meet like there's so many smallcale entrepreneurs where it's like oh I run a farm or I'm a I'm a I'm a master electrician with my own business or you know I'm a plumber with my own business. And so it's not it's not quite as much the kind the kind of person that you'll meet in the San Francisco place where it's like, oh, I'm, you know, I'm I'm trying to build a billion dollar company, you know, like I'm not going to say we have none of those people, but we have a lot of these like very agentic, independently minded people who are

1:10:44 great and trustworthy and honest. They're not geniuses, but they're capable and they're, you know, and they're good people. Uh and then I do think of course we have our you know our our very you know smart and talented people as well but I think we've selected a lot for this sort of like agency and independent mindedness in terms of who's who's ended up here. So, how does that work actually for uh the local economy? Is this like I would imagine this is a bit problematic if you have a bunch of entrepreneur types and you have a bunch of large corporations trying to hide like this. I mean, this specifically is the reason I'm not an engineer is because I just don't really uh like I just didn't want to work in a big corporate bureaucracy and so I left and I went to work with a bunch of smaller companies. But uh if you have a town full of people that do this and you're now trying to spin up the mega

1:11:30 corp, it's probably tough, right? Or does it do you not have enough people in this specific region that it's even disrupting the local thing? >> Well, it's interesting. you know, political power-wise, I would say we're at 25 to 30% of like the actual levers of power in the state. We're like a substantial and meaningful minority that you can't get anything done without and so we'll coalition with whoever to get something. >> You just want to be the annoying 5%, man. It's like the greatest political strategy ever. It's like >> the much closer to 5%, you know, if that. And so we have the you know we have this again you said we were like gays earlier and so it's like we have

1:12:16 this outsized impact compared to the percentage of the population you know that we uh you know that we actually have. Uh and uh so it's like it's um yeah uh so that's that's sort of like the lay of the land there is that there's there's a lot of people who are like impactful and who make a difference but the you know the total population uh you know is is is not that large but the also the native the sort of like and and by the way you don't have to move here to be a free stator. We encourage natives uh uh to wear the label. 60% of people who live in New Hampshire weren't born here as well. So it's not like >> Oh really? >> Yeah. So it's it's like Singapore. >> That's right. Yeah, it is. No, it is like most people who live in New Hampshire were not born here. The majority of people who live in New

1:13:01 Hampshire were not born here. So >> do you know do you know what the uh the percentages on this? This is my comparison for states now is uh what percentage of college graduates leave the state after they graduate. Do you know what that is? Is that higher than average? >> I don't know the exact number, but I do know that it's not a good number. Uh so I know >> it's just not it's not good for any state now. like everyone moves. There's this massive sorting where everyone and also I think there's an effect where people now grow up somewhere and you just get grasses greenered straight into another state at this point. >> Yes. >> No, I think I think this is actually part of the problem that the movement has and it's something that I'm interested in fixing. I think it becomes in much more logical to be here when you're ready to, you know, start a family essentially. If you're

1:13:47 >> Yeah. When you're like 20, it's like you kind of don't want to really be there, right? Yeah, like I didn't I I moved here when I was 31. You know, I think I think if you're a very ambitious young person, I think the pitch for New Hampshire, like just being honest about it is not as strong as I would like it to be. You know, I I want to be clear like we have people we have plenty of people in our 20 in their 20s in the movement. And I actually think if you want to be involved in politics specifically, the pitch is very >> you want to blow up your entire life. 1% shot of being a congressman. >> But if you want to be um if you want to be in business, I think it's a little bit harder. I I do think though,

1:14:33 so it's like what what creates a Silicon Valley, right? Like Silicon Valley was not always Silicon Valley, you know, New York City was not always New York City. And what what is what are the criteria that lead to that happening? And I do think we actually have that increasingly because I think we have a lot of what what uh I I said this phrase for the first time four hours ago and so and I'll say it for the second time in my life that we have a lot of like dry tinder of talent where there are a lot of capable people who have moved here because they prioritize a lifestyle, a political climate, a place for raising their kids more than maximizing their

1:15:18 you know business or financial success where they might be better off in San Francisco or wherever. Uh and so that actually I do think is what encourages the talented entrepreneur to come in. Like if you came here, you know, to start a company, there actually are a lot of very quality people. >> There's just a lot of raw talent. Like there's a lot of diffuse undirected genius that appears to be there because they've realized that okay well in the in the decision matrix that I have here >> I'm either going to have to choose trying to become a billionaire or having a family which will potentially fulfill me in life and they chose the latter. >> That's right. That's right. And and oh and well also like becoming a billionaire does require a lot of drive. you know, a lot of people who become

1:16:03 billionaires like depended on the work of a lot of people who didn't quite have that same motivation or obsession, but they're nonetheless very intelligent, you know, contributor types. You know, every, you know, we we often look at the founder as like the person who made it happen, but if you look at any of these businesses, there's always, you know, dozens or hundreds of people who are actually involved in making that business successful. And it's always a team of people. It's always a team of of high, you know, high ability people. And I think that there's like a lot of these people here who are I I don't want to act like they're doing poorly, like they're doing fine. They have a fine life. Like, but they're we don't have our our our unicorn, our billion-dollar company, you know, that's New Hampshire native yet. And I think

1:16:49 that will I think that will happen in our future. I think it's almost like an inevitable result of continuing to accumulate this kind of uh talent. Um, and so I do think like that would be the reason that would be like >> So do you think do you think that'll pull in do you think that'll pull in the younger people? >> I don't know. I don't I you know I [laughter] >> because Okay. So the way that I'm thinking about this is I'm currently in for the next maybe month or two I am in a town that has a very similar issue. It's it's somewhere that everybody loves going to to raise a family. Uh, but there is it's just like you're not going to go there if you are 22 or something because you're you're just not there's no other young people. You're not going to meet anyone. Uh, it's awesome if you bring a girl in. If you go in looking

1:17:34 for a girl, there's no women. Uh, and if there are women, they've been like paired off and married since they were like 15 or something like that. So, it's just never going to uh be great from that respect. And there are a few actually very large multi-billion dollar companies in this town and thus far they have failed to have any sort of meaningful pull towards the young people and everyone keeps saying oh if you make more affordable housing then the young people will come in but I I also I'm sort of skeptical of that. >> I think I think it's so tough to kickstart that kind of like Silicon Valley thing. It's like number one you need you need a huge amount of capital. Number two you need to like not punish people for making mistakes. even though they're often like pretty stupid mistakes, you need a critical mass of

1:18:22 status enabling. Like I think this is one of the things that the YC guys, as as cringe as they've become later in life, um I think they were deeply correct about in a lot of ways venture capital is not about the money. It's not about the connections. is about giving you permission and status to go do something like oh you're like a smart 24y old you know who maybe did a couple years of like investment banking or consulting natural ne next step is for you to like go work at some industrial company or go you know start some financial company or go into private equity or something and it's like okay instead I'm going to take a a pot shot on something and like the difference between you know the Thanksgiving meme where everyone is laughing at you and it's like oh come tell about like your company and like everyone being like

1:19:08 really impressed at you at Thanksgiving is often like big shot venture capitalists gave me a few million bucks, right? And like maybe the million bucks are not even really that material for the specific idea because it's not like a capital constrained business, but having the few million dollars creates like this critical mass of like forward energy, right? Um and that's so hard to do. I I think you can start by like creating actually good colleges. One thing I'm very surprised that no one has done and I think you guys could maybe pull off is like I'm very surprised that no one has reworked college around being for employment first. I think like let's be serious like college used to be a place where like you went to become formed in like the classics and get like a complete education of the the history of the world and like the western

1:19:53 cannon. That's just not what college is anymore. I think like college is what you do before you get a job so that you're marketable at a job, right? because they're not also in part because like the government does not let you test your IQ and whatever. Um I think it's like probably there is enough energy in New Hampshire where you could get together like a hundred businesses that are like hey we hire you know we each hire like five kids a year and it's like okay between you know a thousand of us we fire 5,000 kids a year. Okay like we all commit to like first going to check from this college if we can hire anybody. Right. >> I get a sense actually that you have done some pretty interesting things on the education frontier. Jeremy, am I >> Well, I think they've mostly done it around like homeschooling sucks, but we want better tools in public schools, right? >> Yeah.

1:20:38 >> That's like where a lot of the energy comes from for for there's really good like >> primary education, right? >> I think I think that's right. I do think we're lacking. I like I don't think like we don't have a great university. I think it's great place for raising your younger kids. Like I still don't know, you know, when my We'll also see what education looks like in a decade because I think it's changing a lot. >> I know that's the other huge problem is it all it's all changing so quickly that I don't even know how you would design a curriculum at this point. >> That's right. Yeah. >> It's all changing so >> it's it's all changed so quickly that I think like it would be twice as compelling to a kid. Like you're a kid, you're selecting where you go for college, right? you don't get into like any Ivy or you get into like Cornell or Brown or something, right? But then you

1:21:23 get into like this school in New Hampshire that says, "Hey, you know, we have we're aiming to scale up to like 500 graduates every year and over the next two years and then like, you know, 2,000 graduates and we have like business owners in New Hampshire who have committed to give like, you know, 5,000 offer us 5,000 jobs a year where it's like you're not like AI spamming applications online. And like there's a real job board and like a real process by which you know the the director of the university like this is one of I think the the biggest things that like the the head of a university can do is when I'm hiring people like I want to talk to head of university I want to be like hey who are like the 10 kids who you think are brilliant right and I want to talk to these 10 kids and I think these people have become like very invested in controlling their

1:22:08 little academic thiefs of like support staff and whatever the hell and like gender theory of communist dance majors. Um, which should be illegal. Like it should be illegal to teach a major. Like that is enough of a negative externality to society that I think there's like a legitimate libertarian case to be made. Um, but I I really do think that um that that is a thing. I think another thing I want to talk about and and I I want you to if you can round out like the the case for New Hampshire and like what is the entry drug, right? Say you're you're a 25-year-old kid. you're like reasonably successful like okay where do I buy like an 100k plot of land in New Hampshire that five years from now we'll like appreciate a bunch and there'll be a bunch of other like moderately

1:22:53 successful 25-year-old kids I think that's a great thing you can do right is like Lucas our beautiful sponsors any of them you've been thinking about this past >> dude I okay I'm I'm going to I know we have to we have to talk a little bit about poly market and some nice betting odds and all this stuff but I got to say the sponsor that's been on my mind recently ly is really Zcash and uh I think we can be honest about why that is the case, right? It's a very good price. Zcash has been [laughter] >> the price asset has been performing amazingly as an asset recently and uh I think they deserve I think they deserve a round of applause. >> They do. Huge round of applause, dude.

1:23:39 Huge round of applause. So, the last thing I'll say, dude, all these Bitcoiners who are like, if you loved Bitcoin at H 100,000, you should love it even more at $2. It's like, no, no, I don't actually. Like, I don't love it at $2. Like, why would I like imagine if people said that for anything else? Like, you loved our meal at $200. It's $2 right now. It's like what happened? >> It's just Okay, this is the necessary thing that you have to say to build a community of people. >> You have to say this. You have to say this, but it's obviously not true. >> You're you're attacking a very very very powerful Chesterton's fence right now. And if you tear it down, we instantly will become like Africa, right? Like you don't [laughter] we'll nuke all the prices, bro. Once people realize that the prices can

1:24:25 recursively go down in the same way they can recursively go up. >> That's like one of the forbidden beliefs, man. Because when when you have a community of people whose only their only desire is for price to go up and they have no belief or understanding in like what the native asset is or like why they're holding it or any thesis regarding it, you just like it's just the worst people ever. Like you become genuine scum such that nobody else will ever want to buy because they don't even want to be associated with people who have previously bought this asset, right? Like I this is actually I think why crypto crashed out on everyone so hard this last cycle. Like this is the specific Chesterton's fence that was destroyed that made all normal people hate crypto as much as they do. We get a

1:25:10 slow-mo replay which takes me to my next thing. Okay, the World Cup. I'm not a big better but I've heard that BB Netanyahu Okay, I have credible information that BB Netanyahu is pulling for Argentina. Okay. Is it really Net >> and I've just uh >> I thought it was Natanya who? >> Dude, none of us. It's really bad that we have a podcast because neither you nor I know how to pronounce things. Man, [laughter] >> we could have an entire We could have an entire like 45minute edited together segment of just >> We could have a super cut of all time. We've talked about how we don't know how to pronounce things. Yeah, we could like the the [laughter] plausibly deniable. >> No, no, not even the time. Like we now have enough volume of us just mispronouncing words that we don't even have to include the parts where we say

1:25:56 is that really how it's like you can just paste the video of us [laughter] saying things incorrectly. >> 30 30 minute super cut of us saying things dubiously correctly slash incorrectly. But yeah, Argentina BB. Okay. The big Yahoo. >> He has been on a roll. >> Have you never heard this? The zoomers the zoomers say this. No, they go to Biggie. >> This one, Dude. [laughter] >> Dude, >> that one will be a big gym. Pull pull that one out of the gym, dude. >> Bro, it's pretty over for Israel. If the Zoomers are saying the big Yeah. [laughter] >> No, but I think it's like I think it's actually coming around. >> I think it's coming around in like some post ironic sense, which is the way I'm saying it, right? were like, "Dude, I'm

1:26:41 in favor." Like the big Yahoo is clearly calling Infantino and being like, "We need Messi to win because do the just the one the video of mele doing like fullbody like maximal surface area coverage onto the whailing wall in Israel is one of my favorite It's one of my favorite photos. like all other world leaders go and they like solemnly and very seriously place their hand on the wall and then Malay goes and does like a full body press like his pelvis, the tips of his fingers, his toes, just max wall contact. Um, but this is all to say that I think on Poly Market there's some serious mispricings going on here. Okay.

1:27:26 Um, I think there's a few things. I'm not a huge sports better, but I think there's >> I was gonna say it's gonna be like our one call that is incorrect is Salea is now gonna give us a sports betting >> t I'm not a big sports better. Okay, I'm not a big sports better. I'm not going to tell you which which way I'm betting. I'll just say I think there's some huge mispricings uh in the World Cup. And a lot of this the the thing you have to realize that retail does not use prediction markets as like what do I think will happen. A lot of times retail particularly for sports betting uses prediction markets as like what do I want to happen and the big difference between most sports market >> it's like a it's the K-pop stand people to win. Yes. Yes. And so the

1:28:11 other thing you have to understand that most sports books have odds set by like professional forecasters who work at these companies. But on poly market that's not what happens. You're getting a market price that is an aggregate of like you know retail institutional etc. people who are playing on Poly Market. And so I think a huge huge thing is like if you think that a certain team is like a lot of people like them or a lot of people hate them, that probably is influencing the odds in that direction more than it would in other sports betting scenarios in my opinion. But yes, I'm not a I'm not a sports better. Okay. Very >> Yeah, dude. Like I don't I'm not saying what I would pick, but I'm just saying like the people ain't picking right. Take from that what you >> I'm saying there's a lot of mispricings

1:28:57 here and I don't I I disbelieve the efficient market hypothesis specifically for prediction markets around events where a lot of people are like who do I want to win as opposed to who do I win? Like the most famous was action. Shayla is saying uh retail is scum and they have no idea what they're doing. >> No, I think I think retail is like thinks that like prediction markets are some kind of like democratic vote where like whoever has the more dollars on their side like wins the game and that's just not it's like a very stupid and obviously like I mean I described obviously retail doesn't believe that >> because I think for elections it works like that a lot too. Like there was one French guy who voted for Trump who who who uh sorry bet on Trump on poly market

1:29:44 and like nobody else was willing to take a big position in favor of Trump. Like this guy alone moved the betting odds. It's it's very well known. There's like the big article on him. >> Okay. I was going to say I assume that there was big enough institutional uh >> back then there really was not big enough institutional players coming in in elections. I think now there are a lot and I think now a lot of what happens during elections is like obviously elections sway like bond prices and things like that and so now a lot of institutions hedge and so maybe there's actually a potential mispricing there where these institutions are maybe like long the bonds of a country and so they want to hedge that position and so they they bet in favor of the candidate that is like bad for the bonds for the bond market for example right or for

1:30:29 like the stock market because they're long the stock market and so I think there's a lot of that actually now. Like if I were to say there's like an institutional mispricing on on prediction markets, I would say it's probably in the direction of people hedging more substantial positions in other markets. Do you have any market that has caught your caught your eye this week? I mean, I'm just doing the thing again, right, where it's like I but I I already did this. I already bet against Google having the best AI model by the end of the month. They're releasing some new thing. People are now saying, "Oh, it's gonna be the same as Fable. It's gonna It's like it's I don't know. I don't think so, man. That's my prediction." But it's like it's at 5% now. So, you're getting it's like you're you're risking you're you're [snorts]

1:31:16 risking a lot to get 5% on a not super guaranteed thing in like two or three weeks. So, maybe at 10% it was worth it to me. >> I wouldn't say 5% makes any sense. Uh Um, what do you think about the new two two things I want to ask you on this and there's I'm sure there's markets for this. Like what do you think about um the the latest OpenAI model? Uh, it's super funny, dude. They're doing these like campaigns on Twitter that are just like very hamfisted where it's like every influencer says exactly the same tweet, like literal copy paste. Like, I'm finally allowed to talk about this. And it's like, guys, come on. Like, yeah, I get that you have to do the marketing thing. Everyone does it. I'm sure Anthropic does it too, but like do it a little more subtly, man.

1:32:01 >> Uh, well, so the first thing the first thing >> Meta I have uh zero thoughts on, but my first thought on the anthropic thing is like basically they had their best model. They didn't want to give it to everyone, but everyone knew that they were going to uh like if OpenAI came out with a model that was competitive with it, they were going to be forced to give everyone access to this thing because otherwise now they just don't have anything that can compete with their biggest competitor. Uh OpenAI came out with something that was pretty competitive and so everyone it was it was just an easy buy. Like it was a super easy buy a day or two. I think there's a case here. >> There's also like a case here to be made for like a parlay or like hedging out two bets, right? Like like if OpenAI releases a new model, then almost for

1:32:46 sure Enthropic will extend Fable, right? Well, the the model I think was if they released the model and because what they did was they wanted to wait for the benchmarks to see is this model good enough that we even have to care like is it competitive? And if it was if it was a shitty model, they would have just said like no, we're not extending this. Get [ __ ] Uh but it was a good enough model that it forced them to extend again. And so now I guess we get it forever in the subscription plan. Uh and the reason why it being in the subscription plan matters is because otherwise you can only access it through the API which just charges you like $10 billion to use this thing and also makes it very uh like if you just want to talk to the thing like you want to say uh okay like I am going to these stores today. What like are there any better

1:33:32 equivalents? What do I buy? Okay. What do I do? Uh, you can't really do that from like a command. >> It's very unwieldy to to use the API on like mobile or something. Yeah. >> Yeah. Like I don't want to be using clawed code like booting up a Windows terminal so that I can ask this thing where the best place to go get new silverware is or glasses or some [ __ ] like that, right? Like it's totally insane. >> Uh, so uh the and and this is actually an area I'm interested in exploring. Unfortunately, like a whole bunch of the laws that hold back innovation are federal and there's just not that much you can do at the state level. But we have a political machine here where like an entrepreneur can work with a political machine and

1:34:17 we're not trying to do carveouts, you know, where your business is, you know, handed some special right, but if you're an entrepreneur who's like, I want to do this thing and we need to deregulate this area or we need to change this, that's actually very feasible. One of the big pushes over the last year, I believe we were like already at the top of the charts of most friendly towards biotech, right to try, you know, medical freedom type stuff. >> Oh, and there's >> there's a huge push to continue to get us at the front. Well, like I think again I think we actually like are already number one or number two and we're like that's not enough. like we want to be even better and uh >> like we want to we want to compete with the weird offshore island entities that are technically like territories.

1:35:02 They're not even states. Like we want to be competing with things that don't really have any legal jurisdiction. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, look, Lumina, when Lumina was getting started, they had to go to Prosper. So, like the first Lumina treatments that like cavity that cavity treatment, >> I think they did eventually get FDA approval. I didn't track all this. >> Yeah. Yeah. For everyone for everyone curious, I believe this is some sort of a weird This is some sort of a weird bacterial treatment where they merc all of the uh bacteria that causes cavities. I don't remember if it works or not. Uh I but they did actually get FDA approval. They did release it. You can now buy it and it's apparently like a one-time solution to cavities. Uh is what it's built as. I don't again I don't know if it works. >> I'm I'm very apprehensive because I'm very conservative and like the small C

1:35:47 like things are very fragile and it's like very easy to [ __ ] things up. I'm like very conservative about taking kind of like treatments like this. >> Yeah. Whenever whenever someone is like we've developed this solution for this minor problem that you can fix with like 30 seconds every uh like 12 hours of activity and it's permanent and it will fix it forever. And I'm like >> yeah it's permanent is always like oh god man. >> But also but also it does sound really cool and I am kind of like what if there is just a free lunch? Like maybe I can just use the infinite no cavity toothpaste and then everything's fine. Or I I don't think it's a toothp. Let me look it up so I stop misrepresenting. >> It's they present it as a toothpaste. It's not. It's about replacing the bacteria in your mouth. I actually haven't used it. But I think it's innovation wise an example of something

1:36:33 where people are trying to >> cool. They should be allowed to try it out. Yeah, >> exactly. There is this kind of like very crazy hell scenario where like uh >> it ends up somehow being bad in some way >> and like uh you make out with people and like it just starts uh reproducing and like that's it. It's over. >> Well, so in New Hampshire, we're going to make allow people to make left-handed gyro molecules of key substances so that eventually all of the world's biology will fall apart. Uh and that's going to be part of our right to track. uh the the this was something that was the the the luminous stuff was illegal. They were doing it. Prosper was where it got started. And I do believe it's legal in the US now. But this is the kind of

1:37:18 thing like this is a healthy activity because part of the problem for like liberty-minded people and I've talked to the prosper people. I actually haven't been there. I have my first trip in three months or so. I'm going to go out there for my for the first time. >> I've been they're they're good people. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and so it's like well you've got to but you've gota if you're trying to build something that works if you're trying to scale this stuff it's like you know you can go down the road of like oh vice crimes or gambling or whatever and it's like but you're not going to attract like you've got to attract like building types the kinds of people who want to help you know create the future who want to be doing positive activities who are going to build things that work and scale and so on. And so I saw you know I I have no I've not researched Luminina at all. I'm not here

1:38:03 endorsing it. I'm not saying it works. I totally actually get the small C conservative attitude towards it. It's why I haven't tried it myself. But directionally, like spiritually, it's like the kind of thing. >> No, I think people should be allowed to try it. Like, you know, try myself, but people should be allowed to try it. >> Yeah. >> Like I I've gotten shilled into it by just saying the name this many. It's like the meme of you need to say the word seven times to an average person before they're willing to entertain buying it. It's like we've now hit like 12 times. Like I'm definitely going to buy it now. >> Yeah. Uh so you guys you guys >> uh you guys get get a sponsorship, okay? So like clip this >> and send them to send it to Lumina. Okay. And like >> listen, once we get a sponsorship, I'm like everyone's got to try this. [laughter]

1:38:48 >> Uh >> we are way worse shillers than you, sir. We've recently gotten a bunch of people hitting me up about doing uh gene therapies for like there's this there's this one specific peptide uh cloth that apparently it has like great uh I mean I've tried it. It made me feel very smart and clearhead and all that stuff uh while I used it, but it cost like $2,000 for like a week or something like that. So, someone made a gene therapy for this where you can permanently have that effect. And I was like, "Wow, dude. It would be like the Limitless drug with no downsides. Definitely let me try that." And so, >> just the second I hear like with no downsides, it's just like >> I know. I love with no downsides and then you have like 15 implied asterisks after it just like but it's like I'm

1:39:34 going to try it, man. Like, why yolo at this point? >> Yeah. Were there uh are we are we Gwen fans on this podcast? Uh there's a classic I don't know if this is too old of a reference, but >> there's like the nicotine blog post. >> Yeah, he he has this post uh the like flowers for Alganon argument, you know, which is >> Yes. Yeah. >> If there was if there's lowhanging fruit for like oh this one molecule would make you so much smarter, like evolution's really good at finding these things. And so, you know, if evolution didn't find this, it tends to be that there were trade-offs, you know, and it's not like a there could be exceptions, you know, but yeah. Oh, one magic molecule. >> It's certainly conceptually a very strong it's it's the kind of argument

1:40:20 that like I don't know whether it's correct or not, but it's certainly like very conceptually strong as an argument. >> Yeah. It's one of those arguments where you hear it and it feels very bad to argue against it, right? Like I want I I hear it and I immediately am like, "Oh, if I anything I say in response to this is to some degree coping, right? It sounds very structurally strong." >> Well, like with strong enough evidence, like we should believe like it's not a it's not an argument that it's like impossible. Like it's not it's not an argument like conservation of energy or like conservation of mass. >> It's not literally impossible, bro. >> [laughter and clears throat] >> And there are cases there are cases with just like weirdly complex molecules. Like I think the GLPS might fall into this category. But uh

1:41:05 >> no, now that I'm thinking about it, didn't we synthesize these from lizards? Biology clearly knows how to make this [ __ ] Never mind. I'm I'm coping again. >> I I think the GLPs are one of the most interesting examples because like all of the data appears to be very positive. And it could be in the case of obesity that like this actually is a novel evolutionary phenomenon where wow I have too much food like >> yeah like we recently invented an environment where everyone is obese right like it used to be you don't have enough food and you starve and die and now it's like >> now we have so much food that you're actually more likely to die from being a fat ass than from starving. >> Yeah. And so I I think things in that category are more likely to potentially be real, you know, but if it's something like and I think it's an interesting

1:41:52 question as to it's not it's not clear how much evolution has been chasing intelligence. Like I think it has been to some degree, but I think if it was like just chasing intelligence, we wouldn't see the world as it is today. >> This is this is something too. So, you were talking about you'd been in uh San Francisco, like all the tech scenes, and so down there, that's very much so an intelligence chasing scene, right? But now you're saying you're over in New Hampshire in an area where you much more chase agency. And I was wondering like you probably have some interesting perspectives on what the difference is in the type of communities that the people who chase intelligence versus uh agency bring and like what the trade-off looks like. >> Yeah. I I want to be clear. I don't think that was like intentional. I think this was a result of the design of the

1:42:39 movement. You know, I'm I'm I'm just seeing it as it is. I'm not like I would like more, you know, highly intelligent people to move here. And I really want to be clear. I'm not saying that we don't have our our our share of them. I think it's like well, you're asking people to act on this belief. You're acting them, you're asking them to act like early to go first to see the potential like you're selecting for people with agency, you know, who are going to uproot their lives, who are going to change their lives, you know, to come to come be here. >> And I guess it's a lot bigger risk, too, right? Because it's not like like if you go to San Francisco for some job, uh it's just a huge city. there's just

1:43:26 there's just more things that you can do to safety net yourself if everything explodes, right? Whereas if you go down and you don't like a small group of people, it's a small town thing where it's like it's very possible actually that you can know everyone within your relevant social sphere within a smaller town and crash out [laughter] in a way that is not possible in a bigger city. >> Um, I would push back on that a little bit. I think like even inside of the free state movement, the free state movement is so large that I can't keep track of everyone. I can't know everyone. There's too many people. We're well beyond well well well beyond Dunar's number, you know, and so it's not it's not this thing where everyone is like fully legible to one another. I mean, to the point that this is it's a

1:44:14 good kind of problem to have. It's like a scaling problem, but we need more. And I'm actually this is one of my current projects with the Free State Party is like we need more tooling to you know allow to to handle these things better. We need to learn from churches and other institutions, other social technology, other social mechanisms of like how do you scale a social group in a way that is like trustworthy and you have a label that means something like the label has to mean something. Like if someone is a free skater, I need to be able to trust them. I need to be able to, you know, I need to have some and and again I I think we like do directionally, but I think I think it's imperfect. And so and also again, worst case, oh my god, I

1:45:00 moved to New Hampshire and I now live in the best state to live in. Like all of the third party like ratings, like we're not gaming this stuff. It's like quality of life, health, outcomes, you know, like >> what's the obesity like? Yeah, it's it's it's just a wonderful place to live. Like even if the free state movement doesn't succeed, New Hampshire is a is an absolutely wonderful place to live. Coming from Philadelphia, >> like it felt like stepping back >> coming from Philadelphia. >> Yeah. Well, one it felt like stepping back in time >> like politically a little bit where it's like >> and maybe this is partially what's allowed us to succeed like there's actually a lot less partisanship. There's a lot less people who have like dug in their heels and have made all

1:45:45 this stuff their identity. Like we New Hampshire has more independents and like more split voters and all this stuff. Like you have people who are like genuine and and just the quality like New Hampshire's average IQ is like 102. That the cultural attitude is like to be helpful but also to leave people alone. Like even going to like the DMV here is like completely different, you know, from going, you know, to going to the DMV in in Philadelphia, which is like a hot, sweaty building, you know, with an incredible weight. And here it's like the government like like I can just call like okay okay when I talk about stepping back in time I want to tell you like almost every like relevant

1:46:32 political office my elected officials my town government you know whoever I can literally just call them and someone and like a human being just answers in like 30 seconds and I just talk to them. >> That is kind of impressive now right? Yeah, like it's mindful. >> It's kind of unheard of actually because it's like you deal with like you deal with actually profit incentivized corporations now where it's literally impossible to do anything other than go spin in circles endlessly with a mentally [ __ ] chatbot. >> Yeah. Like I I needed a a record like related to my house and like I call the town clerk and like they answer in like 30 seconds. I'm like, "Hey, could you send me this?" And I just have like the PDF, you know, emailed them to me. like it's like concurge level service like

1:47:17 from you know it's like it feels it felt you know very weird compared to >> okay I I I'm gonna be honest man I thought you were kind of bullshitting me about all of this like New Hampshire elitism uh but I asked chat GBT here to rank New Hampshire on a variety of quality of life metrics and the first response is New Hampshire is basically an elite tier state on measurable quality of life probably top three overall but with one glaring weakness housing affordability. >> Yeah. >> So, this is crazy actually. Wow. >> Uh you have you have the overall you have the overall literal number one spot in the best health ranking out of all of the states. Uh overall best state number two. Uh very close to the lowest obesity

1:48:03 rate. Literal no crime. Like just zero crime. Economic opportunity apparently amazing. There's like zero unemployment. Uh it just go. This is a very impressive list. This kind of mogs actually. Overall family friendliness number one. Wow. [snorts] >> Yeah. Like there are parks everywhere. There are parks like I can't go drive too far without hitting a park. They're everywhere. >> Wait, you don't have income or sales tax? >> No income tax, no sales tax. It's all property tax. Property tax. It's property tax and there is a business tax which is of course if you tax a business you're ultimately taxing the employees but uh yeah uh it's it's uh it's a business tax and a property tax. Um you

1:48:49 I don't like how expensive housing was at the same time. I think it's a tricky problem because you like if if overnight, you know, New Hampshire tripled in size, you know, which is like if you wanted to get housing if you wanted to cut housing prices in half, the amount that you would have to build is like a tremendous amount. And so, you know, I don't want us to be pricing quality people out, but how you I I just think it's complicated how you uh solve it. My preferred way of driving down housing costs is actually to get like 500,000 leftists to leave in like a trail of tears uh and uh and and uh [laughter] and open up that stock, you know, for uh for more aligned

1:49:34 people. Uh you know, uh but you know, I I you know, I'm pro building like I'm not like a nimi type. I, you know, I'm very in favor of building stuff, but I think it's also tricky because a lot of what makes New Hampshire work is the demographics, is the population makeup. And so from a like sort of Chester's fence, you know, kind of argument, I'm like wary of like, you know, tinkering to in too grand of a fashion. Sure. I mean, like again, the the town that I'm in right now, uh they're very against building any new housing because the problem is that uh they actually did this hilarious scam where they told everyone, "Yeah, we're going to be building new housing. Like, we've received a lot of complaints about this and then they build like $1.8 million town houses for everyone." Uh, and

1:50:19 everyone [laughter] was like, "Dude, are you [ __ ] kidding me? How >> super? >> This is not affordable." And they were like, "What do you mean it's not affordable?" Plenty of people have been asking for this. [laughter] So, I do just believe in like radical um I believe in like like radically against uh civil rights era bills like like the government should be able to like test you for IQ and then like like states should be able to compete like oh I want to offer this guy like a better mortgage. Like I think that there's like great externalities off of like having this guy in my and like this happens this happens to some extent at the very high end, but it's very like crony capitalism, right? It's not it's it's kind of not very open or transparent. Whereas it would be much cooler if it's

1:51:05 like, hey, if you get a 1500 on the SAT, you know, you get like a cheaper mortgage if you want to move to New Hampshire, right? Or like maybe maybe you do some political realism and you're like, "Okay, probably in your 20s you don't want a house here, but maybe we create like some sort of like New Hampshire account that like is tax advantaged and goes towards like you have to spend it on housing in New Hampshire, right?" And so like, hey, you're in you're like 25, like put like 10K into this and then by the time you're 40, you have a house that's like worth like 2 million bucks or something in New Hampshire, right? Like almost guaranteed. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Yeah. Yeah. I I think I think that kind of stuff is uh you know fantastic. My and the again the only problem with cheaper housing is just how do you you got I you know maybe it's a couple

1:51:51 percent of the population. I don't know how high we want to put it at but like like this is the main so much of society has has been built around like getting away you know from these people because we're not willing to like police them or deal with them. This is why. >> Yeah. So much as like you have to price people out economically because that's the only way you're allowed to not freedom of association with people. Right. >> Exactly. I I think it's just the the issue is when you lower the housing prices, the mix of people that you are now letting in favors people you don't want to let in versus those you do want to let in. Right. So it's like you generally just want to say, "Okay, uh >> yeah, but I'm I'm such a big believer in this. I've always said like if I was president like if I was running for

1:52:36 president or like I won like oh like you know Salem's going to be president of the country you know like god forbid um the first thing I would do is like a like a national like a broadcast that every single TV station has to put on air and I'd be like I'm going to do everything possible to like nuke property prices like that's just the first thing I would do and I think you would immediately go like up like you would go up like 20 points with people under the age of 30 like just immediately and yeah, you would lose the boomer vote, right? Obviously, but like I don't know, you manufacture COVID 2.0 or something. >> Yeah. Look, I'm inclined to agree the fact that you know the I don't know what the median home price in New Hampshire is, but I'm going to guess it's like450 $500,000. >> It's actually I think it's about 570. Yeah.

1:53:21 >> Well, thank you for looking that up. Uh, you know, and it's >> just like in my in my opinion, homes are like an ingredient in the family formation, right? like like homes are like, "Oh, you have like a recipe for a family and it's like a man and a woman and then it's like a home that they live in and then hopefully a community around them and like a job, right? Or two jobs, right? Um, and like the home seems to be the big one that people get stuck up on that that you know, the dating stuff isn't going great either, but like I don't know, maybe if we introduced a bunch of cheap homes, like maybe it would be better." Um, we have a fun fun podcast episode coming out with Spandrel. Have you have you are you familiar with Spandrel? Yeah, >> great guy. >> I've read I've read Spandre for more than a decade. >> Really? >> Yeah. Spandro is like one of the And Spando's kind of underground, right?

1:54:06 Like he hasn't achieved like the Bay Area notoriety that that Yarvin has achieved, but he's coined like IQ shredder is his, right? Um like a bunch of very influential stuff. And so so maybe it's like we were talking with him about like how do you create family formation? Like what is going wrong? And like maybe the government does just like need to give handouts to men contingent on them having a relationship. Like maybe you just do that, right? >> Yeah. I'm a I'm okay. So what I'm a little bit skeptical of that one I'll say like in terms of New Hampshire housing I want to come back to that point. Just one thing I want to get out like in terms of New Hampshire housing prices. Like there are clearly a lot of quality and capable and aligned people who would be more likely to move to New Hampshire if they could get a house for $300,000 instead of $600,000. Like I

1:54:52 think that's clearly true. And the so the question is how can we do things that make it easier for those people to get here without the potential downsides of you know who else might come. But my impression is people who are moving here are better actually than the average person who already lives here. Like that's part of why New Hampshire is the way that it is is in terms of who it's selecting for. And >> the immigrants are better than the natives. >> Yeah. Well, yeah. This is why I can't run for office is because I say thank you. >> Um um no, look, the natives are also uh you know, very uh you know, very aggressive. >> Many such great people. is is homegrown or whatever >> immigrants or what we really want.

1:55:38 >> And then in terms of you know just stuff about people having kids I'm I'm very hesitant like obviously like any particular policy like principle of marginality holds and so like probably there's some effect you know for almost any of these policies. I tend to lean towards the explanation that this is like culturally dominant. It's like look, you can have a kid in your apartment. You can have a kid like you're you're I promise you like your one-year-old does not know anything about her economic status and the size of the building that she lives in or like any of this stuff, you know? And so this idea that >> I think I think every guy kind of understands that though, right? But I

1:56:24 think I think the barrier on that one is women for the most part. women just do not appear to want to reproduce in apartments. >> Well, we we also talked about this. I don't want to like rehash this, but I think one of the really big problems that the cultural barriers between the truly upper class, like the top a thousand people and the upper middle class have really been eroded away in a way that historically like there's this great proverb, this great Chinese proverb. There's two peasants, all right, and they're they're tilling the fields, right, with like wooden hose or or bronze hose or whatever. And one of the peasants goes together and they look at the golden palace of the king and they go like, "What do you think the king does all day? I have no idea. It must be incomprehensible to us." And the other peasant goes to him and he goes, "No, no, no. I know exactly what he's doing. He's tilling the fields inside of

1:57:10 the presidential palace with a golden hoe." And it's like, you know, there used to be this way in which I I think, you know, obviously there I'm talking about peasants, but I think there was a lack of understanding before social media and before the celebrity class was a thing. Um, where the celebrity class is even worse because there's a a subsidy on consumption because their job in many ways is to consume as part of a marketing apparatus, right? Um, and I think that creates this big problem where it's like you're keeping up with the Joneses and it's like no, you're keeping up. You're like trying to mentally keep up with the top a thousand people who are like loaded on credit card debt, have all of the like you're trying to keep up with the spending of like a Mr. Beast, right? It's like you you're just not going to be able to keep up with the spending of a Mr. Be. You know, you want to send your kid to like

1:57:56 a $25,000 a year private school, right? For all how you know K12 years of education plus preschool, then college, then like you want a nice apartment, you want this, you want that, you want that. And so I I think it's a keeping of the Joneses. Yeah, obviously you can have kids. Like for most of society it was like your whole family lived in like one room. I don't know. You just tell the kids to like [ __ ] off when you want to have sex. I I don't know what was going on. Um but I I think that's very I think cultural effects are much harder to change than economic effects actually. >> I I think culture is much less malleable um than economics. >> I I agree with that. Uh but I think culture [snorts] is like ultimately the problem. >> You know I and so how you change that I

1:58:45 think is you know quite the challenge and I do think in terms you said you know earlier you said everything is women's fault and since there are no women listening to the show I I I can say that I agree. >> We actually do have like a strong contingent of podcast groupies if you'll believe it. There's groupies for everything. If you're good enough at whatever you do, there are groupies and there are like podcast groupies. This is like a real real >> No, obviously uh all of the women listening to the show are spiritually trans and great. Uh but the uh >> it's just we have to do that. We have to we have a video disclaimer we need to make that just says like uh not you the girl reading this, right? Like that's >> Yeah, it's for so many things it just needs to flash like but not you the girl

1:59:30 reading this. You're the most beautiful. Well, I'm not I'm actually not. Uh I think I do think there are plenty of uh you know you know women who who who get it or whatever. And look, I have a great relationship with my wife. She would never listen to this podcast. It's just not for her. Uh but you know, it's it is it's fine. >> But my wife I know is out there listening somewhere. Uh but you know I think okay something I've seen here I see I see libertarian single men in this community who uh you know like struggle sometimes and it's like and they're like responsible guys it's like I know I know some single guy multiple I can name multiple single men who it's like they're financially successful they already own a home you know they're in their late 20s early 30s and they're you

2:00:16 know struggling you know to find a wife and they want to, you know, they want to have find a wife. They want to have kids and and their mentality, which I'm always encouraging them against, is like, "Oh, I need to like find a woman who already agrees with me." And I've seen, you know, inside of New Hampshire, women come in who weren't particularly libertarian, who were, you know, sort of standardish progressives, but they happened to be married to, you know, a man who wanted to come here. And you know women will change their like a lot of the reason that women are progressive is this is like circular logic but like there's progressive because everyone else is progressive and

2:01:03 this is like the socially acceptable view and like women like are you know especially compared to I think a lot >> New Hampshire official state representative women are malleable. >> Yeah. But there's just a little bit of like you know hive mind. >> No no it's true. It's obviously true. Yes. >> Yeah. And so it's like, you know, the >> I've seen women come into this community, they start going to like the women's events here. Like there's like like my wife hosts like this knitting circle, you know, and it's like there's like a dozen women doing their various craft projects or whatever. And it's like it like radical like I've seen women come in here and get in the matter of like a year like just completely change their politics to be, you know, like much more radical because they they reify the community, you know, values.

2:01:49 And so >> they do go kind of nuts. I mean, you were talking earlier about how uh behind every great man is like a woman who has like an even more deranged and extreme version of his politics and uh it also works with friends. I've noticed like you can definitely uh you can definitely watch somebody go off the deep end and they'll start like uh I don't know. I I know a girl who switched friend groups and it resulted in her like watching Candace Owen videos and just going totally insane, right? Like there was no men involved in this. It was an entirely self-sustained female pipeline that led her to Candace Owens. >> Yeah. And so it's a it's a it's a I I

2:02:35 think this is like the best way is like you know you if you're if you're like a you know pretty right-wing or right-wing libertarian dude and your opinions are like unpopular in the dating zeitgeist, you know, I'm going to encourage the somewhat dishonest practice of like hiding that [laughter] like at least a little bit. I was gonna ask I was gonna ask how many dates in do you have to wait before uh mentioning your politics in your opinion? >> Oh, you know, I'm I'm from a different era, you know, like I I I haven't used a single one of the dating apps that people like I see people talk about that on, you know, social media and, >> you know, and so on. And um you know I never I never hid my opinions but I

2:03:24 would say I guess I probably wasn't like blunt about them either. You know like there's a way of asking questions or like you know being vague. Well, I think there's like fun ways also that you can like >> say very rightle leaning things in very like because words a lot of times are like a veilance indicator more than like a very especially like you're on a first date, you're having a political conversation for whatever reason >> and it's like I was like what the are you really truly examining >> first? Are you platonically examining like the truth of political nature in the country like on a deep level? No. Like she's just trying to get an idea of like do you intrinsically hate women? Like that's what she's really trying to

2:04:09 understand or like there's an establishment of like a power balance in a relationship that's happening through a medium that is like politics, right? And I think the other thing is if you say if you say I do like I hate women so much but you're like smiling at her and like making eye contact like also she'll be like no he said he loves women right like it's just like yeah so many veilance there's so many veilance hacks that you can do where people will assume you said something totally and like you could be like no no no I didn't say that I said this other thing that like you're obviously horrified at and she's like no no no there's no way he said that >> like be right Yeah. >> Yeah. I agree with you guys completely. And I think to some extent I I don't know if people still use the phrase like [ __ ] test. Like some of this stuff is

2:04:55 effectively a [ __ ] test. And it's like just literally how do you react to it? And if you are defensive or apologetic, then you failed the test. And if you can, you know, grin through it or respond the right way, then you're going to be fine. >> Okay. I'll give you the real opinion and then we'll move off this topic. But like the the real reason why people have such a reticence with this idea and like so many married guys that I know basically say things to the effect of like you have to keep your wife in the dark for like a super long time and kind of use all this like dark arts on her. And I think the problem is and maybe this is an incorrect idea, right? But this totally debunks like any idea of like

2:05:40 romance and whatever, right? this idea that like, oh, I have to like systemically lie to this woman while I court her such that this illusion of like my neutrality does not exist. I have to like carefully manage her info diet and like again maybe this is true, but it is a really hard pill to swallow, right? I think in a lot of ways it's a very hard pill to swallow. >> It's one of those things that young men hear and they're like, "Oh, well, I just don't want anything to do with this." >> Yeah. It makes them drop out of marriage. They're like, "Yeah, >> if I have to be constantly having this like cold war internally in my household, um maybe I just don't want to get married." And I I think that's the big thing. >> Well, I think it clearly ends. I I would endorse that. Like, yeah, look, especially as someone with like

2:06:26 radically unpopular opinions that like I'm not going to have those be the first thing out of my mouth. But if a if a woman ultimately comes to like me and appreciate me, then she'll like roughly adopt, you know, something directionally like my opinions. And then that's just [snorts] to some degree how women work. And so it's like you don't lead with it. You don't lie about it or hide it either. And it's about, you know, getting her to, you know, sort of respect you as the leader of your, you know, relationship or your family or whatever. There is also this autism that people have where they're like it's like, "Oh, it was dishonest the way that he didn't tell me that he thought my hair looked [ __ ] stupid on our first date, right?" It's like like they

2:07:11 don't say that, but they would say the political equivalent of it, right? It was dishonest the way that he didn't tell me that he thinks my political candidate is a [ __ ] on the first date. And it's like it's it's also just sort of like socially normal, right? Like I don't walk around going up to like everybody that I see saying, "Hi." It's like, "Your shirt's gay. Like your shoes look stupid. Like your belt is the wrong size. You shop at Walmart or something." Like you just don't have to say these things to everyone you interact with all the time. And uh I don't know the line of honesty also like it does just increasingly get used to say like, "Oh, like I'm honest." And it's like guy who is just being kind of an [ __ ] to everyone. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a honestly is a, you know, a fuzzy thing. It's something,

2:07:56 you know, I'm raising my kids and it's like, well, you know, you want them to tell the truth, but like, you know, not always. [laughter] >> Yeah, it's Elvin thing. Do the Elvin thing, bro. Like, you can sometimes just not address subjects if they're bad, right? Just don't. [laughter and snorts] >> I mean, it is it it's also conceptually funny. It's like the uh I forget who said it but everyone who names themsself after a thing becomes uh the opposite of the thing in some axis right like open AI went from being a open nonprofit like open source to like now it's just entirely closed for profit it's like if you name yourself the free society at some point you will have a database at some point you will have a database of the members that has rules and

2:08:43 restrictions for entry >> [laughter] >> that well no I mean you had I think that's fairly libertarian idea look we have multiple people in the free state movement who work for Palunteer you know I don't know you know it's like some libertarians don't like that you know I I have no problem with it you know like that doesn't mean I like everything or whatever but like that they seem like a fine company you know from my perspective >> this is one of those things I've never understood like the libertarian people who get really angry at like palunteer or like flock or whatever it's like dude Like your local policeman might be like an [ __ ] but the odds that he's like truly [ __ ] going out of his way to like ruin your life the way that the federal government has like done certain things that are incredibly pernicious is just not like the odds of this are just

2:09:28 incredibly low. And if this is true, like just tell some young kid to like run for the chief of police or something. Um, but like all these people get mad at like their local police and like trash flock cameras and call themselves like right libertarians. It's just so ineffectual. Like if you actually the same type of person who goes up to uh it's like let's say I bought something at uh Walmart, right? And it just didn't work. And I go up to the I go up to the guy at the return desk and I'm like you fat [ __ ] Like you [ __ ] like it's like you're just yelling at the wrong person. >> Uh yeah. I mean my again my impression of Peter Teal is like pretty positive. you know, you never like everything

2:10:13 about someone, but my impression is like is is wholly positive. And that's like my impression of again I think you there's this weird libertarian argument that I've never really liked that's like we'll have liberty by like making the government really inefficient and like that's not my sense of like how you get anywhere. Like I don't want I don't want the government of like a South South American or like an African country where there's like a whole bunch of laws but also they're not real and they're >> This is This is a great point. >> Yeah. Highly subjectively or whatever, you know. And so, you know, yeah, Palunteer is uh they're not like a database company, but they effectively like connect data sources and build custom dashboards and tools, you know, for entities with a lot

2:10:58 of data sources that includes the federal government. you know, getting mad at at Palunteer to me is like a bit like getting mad at like, you know, you're getting mad at like my SQL or, you know, whatever. Like there's all kinds of technologies that are used >> like Oracle. >> Yeah. Yeah. By the government to be more effective. And this idea that I can get liberty by having the government just be really inefficient, you know, doesn't make sense to me. You know, I I the type of government that I want is like a very small set of rules, but those rules are enforced, you know, reliably, >> very well. Yeah. and in a consistent way that people understand. It's not the it's not the social media courage and service thing >> where it's like we're leaving enough gray area that we can do individual action on any given person that we find distasteful. >> The the other problem that libertarians

2:11:44 have is that they never um consider their ideas within like the larger broader world. It's like, okay, we're going to abolish the government, man. It's like, okay, what happens when like the the the Chinese Communist Party shows up on like the shores of California? like what do you do then? Right? >> It's basically there's a misunderstanding of like the individual versus social freedom, right? Like you can have very high individual freedom that winds up horseshoeing you back to literally the stone ages because you have zero social freedom because yeah, it's like the basic critique of libertarianism is if you give everybody no laws, then eventually you just you lose all your freedom because some [ __ ] crackhead stabs you in the face. Well, some other group of people won't give up all their laws and they will have like a central, you know, like

2:12:30 power is centralizing and centralizing power accumulates is just like the reality of the world and the technology tree and um it's it's a very like childish understanding of the world where it's like and I think the reality is most right-leaning libertarians understand this intrinsically and I think most right-leaning libertarians vote pretty hard Republican at this point like almost all of Right. And I think that's why I think that's why the the the Libertarian Party became so left-leaning is because like the right-leaning libertarians were just like, "Yeah, this is like really stupid. Like I I can't keep wasting my time voting for this. This is ineffectual." Right? I And I think so many people would be surprised how many Trump supporters like Trump is objective. If you look at his policies, he's not like

2:13:15 a libertarian guy by any means, but I think you would be really surprised at how many libertarians agree with him because they understand that there's a higher order battle that needs to be fought over who controls the federal government, right? It's like you you have to have the ring of power before you can throw it into, you know, the the volcano and destroy it. You need to have it and really have it first, right? Before you you throw it away and destroy it. Um, yeah, dude. I I think the New Hampshire stuff is is pretty awesome. I'm like a big New England nationalism guy. I love New England. I think I think right leaning people should take back New England. I think this idea of like democratic staffer kids who like want total third world communism and then who post like photos in Martha's Vineyard is like the end of civilization and these

2:14:00 people should be humiliated thoroughly online. Um is there anything else we should know about New Hampshire or or anything like any fun lore? So you went to this conference and you called them all losers. Did was that like the national conference or the New Hampshire conference? >> No, no, that was the national libertarian. This stuff is small but like the libertarian party plays such a small role in the libertarian movement. Again I I think it gets outsized impact on online and this is why I felt was important for the New Hampshire Libertarian Party to be controlled by the you know sort of free state contingent but like we play almost no role in state politics. like well we play some we've we have increasingly become like this sort of like boogeyman where we have been able to sort of scare some of the Republicans actually more

2:14:45 than the Democrats uh like by bully we can actually bully them to vote a little bit better you know or whatever but everything here is happening through the Republican party like that is how liberty is happening here in New Hampshire it's it's Republicans getting elected changing the laws making the state you know better in terms of politics politics free, you know, maybe 2% of free sters are in the New Hampshire Libertarian Party. It's it, you know, most of them are not. So, this was a vehicle to serve a larger purpose. I feel like the New Hampshire movement, you know, continues to be ascendant. Uh, what's happening here really doesn't appear to be happening anywhere else in America. And I think like

2:15:33 something new will ultimately happen. Like the world needs it. It will happen. I think New Hampshire has a better chance of it being that thing than a lot of other possibilities. But like something has to happen here. Like we're in the dark ages when it comes to government. And our current systems are increasingly failing. They're increasingly breaking. You know, the only thing holding us afloat is entrepreneurs and that American spirit of doing things. And that spirit is succeeding despite the government, you know, not because of it. And you know, what could happen if you actually had that spirit unleashed and unchained uh you know, instead of

2:16:18 corraled by democracy, you know, I think could be really incredible. And I wake up every day here, you know, with optimism for the future. It feels like things get better here, you know, every day. That's a very psychologically pleasing feeling. I think people who found who are still listening at this point should just plan a trip and should come for a visit and not try to debunk it or debate it, you know, with their favorite AI or with their Google searches. Like just come and check it out. >> You can't learn by reading [ __ ] anymore. It doesn't work. It's been debunked. that whole concept >> we have I will I will defend us here as like one of the very few podcasts we have like incredible retention like if you make it past 25 minutes almost all of the people actually watch through >> if sorry if you make it past 5 minutes

2:17:04 if you make it past five minutes you're going to be >> listen we'll go for like another we we'll go for another like 5 10 minutes Jeremy and then and then we'll we'll let you go so the wife doesn't long house you too hard I I think the last thing I really want to hit on is like I think one thing I hear from you and I hear from like these people in New Hampshire that I really don't hear in a lot of other places like I think the only two people politicians that I hear this from on a global stage are Trump and MLE is like there is a vision of winning that is not like a really pathetic form of winning. I I think so much political energy on the right and I think this is one of the things that that Bap says, right? I think Bap doesn't really want to be a leader. He more wants to be like this kind of character online is very interesting. He's a super smart guy, like very brilliant. I think one of the

2:17:49 great points that he makes is that on the right there is this pathetic loser energy a lot of times. Um and it's like you can win more. Like imagine a world where you went and there's some people whose like their their craziest fantasy in like their wildest wet dreams is like a world where I am not not totally annihilated. And it's like allow yourself to dream about something slightly more, you know, allow yourself to dream of like a government that not only doesn't [ __ ] with you, but like does do great things, right? does solve collective action problems and does make it easier for people, you know, young people to to live and form families and have jobs and enterprise and whatever. Um, I don't know if you want to close out with anything that crazy or Lucas, if you want to hit him with with a last

2:18:34 question before >> No, man. Go be long-housed. >> That's the spirit, you know, precisely. That's also why I think I see people when they look at New Hampshire, they get into this trap of like arguing about, well, uh, you know, maybe this other state, you know, has slightly better tax policy, you know, or it' be more affordable, you know, here or whatever. And I feel like that completely misses the point because I mean one I mean I would claim that we're the best and we would win win win these things or whatever but like the scale of what's possible is so big and the scale of where we are today is so constrained and we to have that vision

2:19:20 of these larger grander possibilities and also to feel like we're making progress towards them. Look, it's it's the most psychologically satisfying thing in the world, you know, like often when we attain our goals, the satisfaction goes away. But if I wake up every day and I'm getting closer to that sort of like transcendent achievement that I want to achieve, I feel really good. I'm making progress every day. I'm getting closer to where I want to be every day. I think this is the closest to to to to sort of uh you know psychological um happiness like or you know whatever it's it's the best that we can feel is when we're you know in that kind of space and and you know I think that's

2:20:05 here I think and I think that where we can go is so much bigger than what everyone is focusing on in a national level or in all these other ways. days and uh yeah and so yeah, come and visit. I'll say I'll say it one more time. Come and visit and and we can end here. >> See, I'm actually I'm actually kind of being pilled on this whole thing cuz I don't really like I have a couple places. >> I think you could get Lucas to come out in like the next >> I think actually I am like this is why the episode has turned into >> I think Lucas is a great person. I'm like dude where the [ __ ] am I supposed to live bro like cuz I don't like any of the places that I've been to recently. Uh, and I don't really have a home now. So, I

2:20:50 >> I think there's places that you like like I think you you enjoy SF, you enjoy New York, but like in doses, right? And I I think there's something about living all the time in in SF or New York or one of these urban centers that is like very >> I do think that everyone who lives in San Francisco permanently becomes completely insane and unhinged and like unored from reality in a way that makes them genuinely bizarre to interact with most of the time. And it's like, you get it? Like when I go there and I visit, I feel myself becoming someone who like if I go and talk to a normal person afterwards, they're horrified by like a lot of the things that I say, right? Uh and it's like at some point, maybe three or four months there, it's just like snap. Like you've permanently transformed yourself into a San Francisconian and nobody will ever understand you again. So I think that's

2:21:36 what SA worries about if I go there. >> Just wait. >> Thank you very much. >> Yeah. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Jeremy, for coming. Uh, we'll hang out at some point. Thank you very much for coming on the podcast. You can catch Jeremy on on Twitter. I'm sure it'll be somewhere in the description or somewhere. He'll be he'll be retweeting and shelling the hell out of this episode, I'm sure. Godspeed. Enjoy New Hampshire. Everyone should visit to New Hampshire. We could have a podcast meet up. Lucas and I won't show up. All of you freaks can go alone. >> I might I might show up actually. I don't know. I would count me out. >> We'll do a live We'll do a live show. You guys want to do a show at the live show? >> We could do We could do a live show. >> Epic. Yeah. >> Yeah. Come you come out at the same time. We'll do a live show. We'll get like >> 50 to 100 people in the audience who do a live show. That would be